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Topic: 1st steps and the KISS principle? (Read 2241 times) previous topic - next topic
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1st steps and the KISS principle?

I installed Artix last year I think and booted it now and then to see if still boots without really using it much. Tonight, seeing an alert about 1300 or so updates I gave it a try, and another, and another with that many forced reboots cause it would lock up each time. I would then have tried a one-by-one approach but the interface makes such endeavor possible only by first individually disabling all the scheduled updates (there s no 'do not update all' button).

So I downloaded the latest two iso's (plasma & xfce) with the intention of doing an upgrade off the DVD. No 'upgrade' was offered either so I figured nothing can be broken by a forced overwrite of everything and I opted for that. Again I quickly ran into a few problems

1
Why does the installer insist on a user name as well as a user ID, isn't a user ID enough? I have never used a user name and never will either.

2
On a 1st install the primary objective far surpassing everything else HAS to be simplicity and bootability. In the old days I would stick to a minimal 3-4 gb install which alas is no longer possible in most distros. But I also use u for user as well as user password, r for root as well as root password because of the above stated SURVIVALIST prioritization! The real-world assignments come in other sessions AFTER the basic bulletproofing.The Artix installer doesn't cater to such revolting individualism either. 

3
So as I finally got a mostly default-based over-install going on top of the existing Artix partition I got up to drain my kidneys; when I returned there was a dialog with ArtiX in it asking for a pasword, didn't say whose password or why. I tried every one of the id's and passwords previously fed to the installer to no avail.

So I shut down and rebooted my go2 distro from which I'm composing this masterpiece :-)

Enough rant, I do like Artix, now on to another topic...

Who, has loved us more?

Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #1 –
Quote from: badsector – on
it would lock up each time.
https://forum.artixlinux.org/index.php/topic,1923.0.html
Quote
What to do if I have a problem:
  • First go through wiki.archlinux.org and wiki.artixlinux.org and use the relevant parts (all except the systemd commands on the archlinux wiki) to set up your system really correctly.
  • Look at the internet to see if anyone has had a similar error (at least 90% of problems have already been solved on the internet before you) - often a question of 5 minutes before solving it here for days and peoples here will look at the internet anyway :-)
  • Follow the announcements on the main page at artixlinux / archlinux too

If nothing helped and you still have a problem, always give us relevant information when creating a topic (we really don't care that you had a good breakfast and that the computer is red) ;-)

Quote from: badsector – on
So I downloaded the latest two iso's (plasma & xfce) with the intention of doing an upgrade off the DVD. No 'upgrade' was offered either
That's not how it works. On Arch-based distros you typically update your system every so often, for example on a daily to weekly basis with pacman -Syu. If your system doesn't work, you can recover it from the LiveISO.

Quote from: badsector – on
1
Why does the installer insist on a user name as well as a user ID, isn't a user ID enough? I have never used a user name and never will either.
Having your real name and surname tied to your account is a legacy of Unix-like systems, which were from the start designed as multiuser systems. That's what gets written to /etc/passwd, that's how it works. By default, your login name will be filled from your full name, so you can just type in your login name in the "Full Name" box. If the requirement to have a nonempty full name bothers you, ask Calamares developers to change it: https://github.com/calamares/calamares

Quote from: badsector – on
2
On a 1st install the primary objective far surpassing everything else HAS to be simplicity and bootability. In the old days I would stick to a minimal 3-4 gb install which alas is no longer possible in most distros. But I also use u for user as well as user password, r for root as well as root password because of the above stated SURVIVALIST prioritization! The real-world assignments come in other sessions AFTER the basic bulletproofing.The Artix installer doesn't cater to such revolting individualism either. 
If you care that much about minimalism, why use a graphical installer? Why use X.Org at all? You should use a base ISO and only install minimum of packages that you need. Problem solved.
 

Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #2 –
If you're looking for the KISS principle, why are you even using the GUI installer in the first place? Like Strajder said, just use the base iso. It only installs the bare minimum and everything else is up to you. That's the whole reason why it exists.

Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Dudemanguy – on
If you're looking for the KISS principle, why are you even using the GUI installer in the first place?


My Amiga 1000 had no hard drive and only 500mb of ram, yet id did everything via GUI, so I kinda consider the possibility of a GUI front also being minimalist, the term being more relative than absolute :-)

Anyway my point wasn't about GUI but about keeping unnecessary fluff other than GUI out of the _initial_ installation process.
Who, has loved us more?

Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: badsector – on
My Amiga 1000 had no hard drive and only 500mb of ram, yet id did everything via GUI, so I kinda consider the possibility of a GUI front also being minimalist, the term being more relative than absolute :-)
Doesn't change the fact that GUI is still not minimalistic.

Quote from: badsector – on
Anyway my point wasn't about GUI but about keeping unnecessary fluff other than GUI out of the _initial_ installation process.
Initial installation process is base install: https://artixlinux.org/download.php
Quote
Base ISOs allow for a fully customised installation, which is done in a TTY and is intended for knowledgeable users. This is the recommended way of installing Artix and the team will be happy to support any issue. An almost identical lowmem version found at the testing section below, can boot and install on machines with as little as 300MB of RAM.
it has exactly those packages that you instruct pacman to install. Your point is wrong.

Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: strajder – on
Doesn't change the fact that GUI is still not minimalistic.
Initial installation process is base install: https://artixlinux.org/download.phpit has exactly those packages that you instruct pacman to install. Your point is wrong.

Sorry but I don't think we're on the same page at all when it comes to what minimalistic and initial-install mean yet I don't call your viewpoint wrong, it is simply that of a developer while mine is that of a possibly typical end-user. Minimalistic initial-install to me means a gui installer that installs a gui system that is small and simple enough and devoid of all unnecessary potential hangups to be bulletproof before any further expansion, tweaking and deployment to service. As examples ANY constraints about id and password length or composition at this stage fall into the unnecessary category. Such an approach would actually make YOUR work easier. If some downline sysadmin or user subsequently wants yard-long passwords, biographies and a streaming colonoscopy from users that's no longer a developers headache so long as provision is made. 

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Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #6 –
As the download page clearly says:
Quote
Graphical installation images come with a slightly preconfigured desktop system (LXQt, LXDE, MATE, Cinnamon, KDE/Plasma, XFCE) and a basic set of applications: a file manager, a media player (mpv), a network manager, a document viewer, a web browser and the calamares installer. People afraid of the Linux terminal or in need of a quick, intuitive installation would want this ISO. Support will be provided, if asked nicely and politely.

The GUI isos are not meant to be minimal/KISS type installs. They never were. The solution is to simply use the base ISO. It will only install exactly what you tell it to.

Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #7 –
@badsector :

Is it possible to say that you're referring to installers similar to those used in Bridge, Evo/Lution, Architect, Cinnarch (all defunct now), Zen Installer (still alive)?  Those were simple text-only installers (TUI),  that were installing very basic - but fully functional -  systems.

Are they a type of minimalist installers you're talking about?

Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: just – on
@badsector :

Is it possible to say that you're referring to installers similar to those used in Bridge, Evo/Lution, Architect, Cinnarch (all defunct now), Zen Installer (still alive)?  Those were simple text-only installers (TUI),  that were installing very basic - but fully functional -  systems.

Are they a type of minimalist installers you're talking about?


No, other than Slackware which went with a curserish interface for the install and which the Suse fork initially adopted as-was, Suse later went with their own real GUI installer.  One of the options was a minimal install which meant a KDE desktop but with only so many packages as was necessary to make it work, test for the boot, etc. Booting had more issues then so you didn't wanna spend an hour installing something that would not even boot. The 'quickie' insyalled in 15 minutes and you went from that after establishing that everything was OK. I'm talking Suse circa 3.9 or 4.3 or such. The idea, VERY correctly I might add, was that every additional step or package over and above a functional gui system increased the risk of an unbootable/unusable installation so that there was no point in taking the install to greater heights before a working and viable system existed. This minimal gui package-set resulted in what was then around 4gb and you could even back it up to an iso file that fit on the first dvd's. Those days are gone, so are the frisbies but the principle remains, and my problem in this case (not really a problem at all because even my first install was backed up) was that the install locked up and had to be abandoned because of unessential id/pwd issues.

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Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #9 –
posting from Artix plasma installed on Asus-g73 laptop, not without problems

I think both the user-id-root and especially  the partitioning module
need work on them

Also the mere possibility of a screensaving lockout during any INSTALLATION
is questionable

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Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: badsector – on
I think both the user-id-root and especially  the partitioning module
need work on them
This is a calamares issue. You may take it upstream.
Quote from: badsector – on
Also the mere possibility of a screensaving lockout during any INSTALLATION
is questionable
Why? The password is provided at the downloads page and its ridiculously guessable too: artix

Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: badsector – on
Sorry but I don't think we're on the same page at all when it comes to what minimalistic and initial-install mean yet I don't call your viewpoint wrong, it is simply that of a developer while mine is that of a possibly typical end-user. Minimalistic initial-install to me means a gui installer that installs a gui system that is small and simple enough and devoid of all unnecessary potential hangups to be bulletproof before any further expansion, tweaking and deployment to service. As examples ANY constraints about id and password length or composition at this stage fall into the unnecessary category. Such an approach would actually make YOUR work easier. If some downline sysadmin or user subsequently wants yard-long passwords, biographies and a streaming colonoscopy from users that's no longer a developers headache so long as provision is made. 


It doesn't seem to me that you are a "possibly typical end-user" by any means based on your complaints and attitude. I don't think the advice of anyone who has tried to give some will make much difference. I could be wrong, and if so I am sorry. I have been around for a few years and have seen a few "complainers" as such. Life is too short.
We should try to be kind to everyone.....we are all fighting some sort of battle.

Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: nous – on
This is a calamares issue. You may take it upstream.Why? The password is provided at the downloads page and its ridiculously guessable too: artix


WHYYY?   Because during an installation there are already enough things that COULD go wrong so I really cannot imagine why you would wanna have a screensaving lockout. Furthermore at the time of the cited event the passwords had already been set up so it seemed to me that one of THOSE should work. The point is otherwise totally moot because since then I have done about half a dozen installs, three good ones, the last one bombing on an update (next post). BTW I've spent my life in risk management, it's all about risk/reward: you automatically reject all risks that give no reward, such as a lockout during an install.

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Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #13 –
I did two good installs on my laptop and the prime one got some tweaks and updates done. It's quite a learning curve but I'll chew my way through it.  Ran into a major problem though on a reinstall on my desktop where last year's install was not updatable as per previous comments.   

Just for a heads-up ALL my computers' primary disks are all set up identically for the bottom 10 partitions:

Code: [Select]
Device          Start        End   Sectors  Size Type
/dev/sda1        2048     104447    102400   50M BIOS boot
/dev/sda2      104448    8493055   8388608    4G Linux swap
/dev/sda3     8493056  218208255 209715200  100G Linux filesystem
/dev/sda4   218208256  427923455 209715200  100G EFI System
/dev/sda5   427923456  637638655 209715200  100G Linux filesystem
/dev/sda6   637638656  847353855 209715200  100G Linux filesystem
/dev/sda7   847353856 1057069055 209715200  100G Linux filesystem
/dev/sda8  1057069056 1266784255 209715200  100G Linux filesystem
/dev/sda9  1266784256 1476499455 209715200  100G Linux filesystem
/dev/sda10 1476499456 1952552959 476053504  227G Linux filesystem

/dev/sda4 above is an exception, may have to do with the issue, I have no idea why it became EFI. The size of data p10 varies to remaining disk space.

Partitions 4 and 8 are since last year Artix partitions, I want them doubled until I get comfortable with them, something that could take a while.  Sooooo, I formatted p4 and went with the latest plasma install DVD as I had on the laptop, I probably did NOT ask it to deploy grub boot code, instead when done I just rebooted and the existing grub code last deployed from within a Suse partition took up the task and booted it no problem. Then I did some tweaks, fixed the passwords down to what I want, installed a Firefox-derivative, edited universe into pacman.conf,  issued a pacman -Sy and then pacman -Su.  This last op went part way, maybe to 80% when it suddenly bombed with a message like "segfault out of disk space".  Rebooted Suse, checked the spaces: the older Artix on p8 was about 9% full and the new one on p4 about 11%, leaving around 90 gigs open each.  Got Suse Yast to deploy grub code again with the "probe foreign OS''es" checked as usual.

ON reboot the p9 Artix was no longer in the menu!  Preparing for a manula grub boot, on looking into the /boot folder I see only
Code: [Select]
amd-ucode.img  
intel-ucode.img  
memtest86+

At that point, because I might still be able to salvage 3 hours of work I stopped TS and decided to post this. I can get to the p4 partition from any one of the other 6, all bootable.  The p8 Artix /boot has

Code: [Select]
amd-ucode.img                 
initramfs-linux.img  
memtest86+
initramfs-linux-fallback.img  
intel-ucode.img      
vmlinuz-linux

  
Maybe I could paste vmlinuz and initram over to p4?  ,,,like for a single manual boot attempt?

TIA


 
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Re: 1st steps and the KISS principle?

Reply #14 –
There was  a major breaking version update to pacman and libalpm this summer, there were various instructions online on how to get round this, that's probably part of the update issue. Not sure on the isos you tried, but some have a desktop manager (sddm or something) because you can choose different desktops to boot.