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Topic: Semi random thinking out loud (Read 8116 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #15 –
The point is, I don't like to go into a discussion about the general direction linux has been taking.
We got to make the best of what is available, elogind closed the gap logind created, but artix is not BSD.

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #16 –
Quote from: artoo – on
I find logind for the aims it wantsto achieve ok, problem is, its tied to systemd in its source.
I dislike polkit, and since you mentioned it, you can prevent normal users to shutdown with logind by setting polkit rules.

Usually I don't likwe to spout because you guys are working your asses off and it amazing that this thing works at all, but logind and polkit is broken in its very design becuse it slices through the linux kernels core security archeticture (not to mention that it treats the user like an idiot). 

As for polkit, It is not needed at all and therefor I don't need to ask it permision to not be a huge security hole... it can just be deleted and blocked from the /etc/pam.d/ configurations

The problem here, Artoo, is that you are going to pump 15 years of work into this and then find out that systemd is not extractable because it is a huge worm (and I mean that... it is a security worm) ... which that now become a dependency for every user space application from the aplay to  zsh

They are cementing you into the wall, brick by brick.

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #17 –
Quote from: artoo – on
The point is, I don't like to go into a discussion about the general direction linux has been taking.
We got to make the best of what is available, elogind closed the gap logind created, but artix is not BSD.


:(

Yeah - I understand.  Sorry.  I send you and your family and your team all of my love.

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #19 –
Quote from: phoenix_king_rus – on
Hope, this day never comes.
Also, isn't elogind too overengineered for the purpose it serves?

It will when arch make that switch, we gonna follow.
I really don't care, either we want desktops and DMs working or not, there is no alternative to elogind afaik, ck2 is not an option.

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #20 –
Quote from: artoo – on
It will when arch make that switch, we gonna follow.
I really don't care, either we want desktops and DMs working or not, there is no alternative to elogind afaik, ck2 is not an option.

With regard to this, I find it is a false choice.  We've had desktops that have worked without root level authorization driven into the desktop going back to Xerox Park.  It is not necessary to have longind and policy kick in order to have functioning desktops.  Sun did it, BSD did to SuSE did it, Slackware did it, Red Hat did it.  VA Linux did it, Raster and Enlightment did it, WebOS, INDYK, HP-Unix  did it etc etc.  This has been a bad design choice since Pottering begged Nat Friedman to ditch their existing login system for systemd's logind.  If the goal of the FreeDesktop people to make Linux OS's more like Windows (which has been the relentless drumbeat for nearly 20 years), well that is a crap idea.  A systemdless  system can default to X11 and wmaker and wicd, vixie dhcpcd for a laptop set up and just simplify the entire system in a KISS design.  If someone wants KDE, let them back port it to their hearts delight.  Why burden yourself to support such a complex infrastructure that is broken by design?

Now, I know that you more likely mean that going forward, as these desktops are wrapped up with policykit and logind, and wayland, you feel the path of least resistance is to follow.  No doubt that they are steamrolling themselves right into that systemd  dependency nightmare...

or maybe not since FreeDesktop.org seem to change their mind ever 6 months, depending on the hot tech is from Apple and Microsoft.. when they then get the fun of breaking everything all over again.  They are worst that the Ford Pinto with their built in obsolescence without regard to the safety of the end users.

This comes down to the question, why is Linux not successful on the desktop.... the real answer has always been, it IS successful, and has been for 20 years.  What it is not is commercialized and forced on OEM contracts with hardware, to do insecure things, and to work in an obstructive manner.


If you have limited resources, the project is likely to be better situated to keep everything as simple as possible and not be hitched to a wagon train where every client program will have systemd hooks.  Your looking at it and you know that you can not possibly be responsible for every client program that comes along, which is indirectly what happens when you just swap out systemd policykit and logind for elongind and faux systemd.  The positive of what is being done is that in theory you can leverage the entire arch ecosystem, but the reality is that your a mouse in a maze with a mousetrap in the end.  This is a giant Nigelah.  Your position, as Goergi Laforge once said, should be, "The hell with the cheese, just let me out of the trap".

I would end by saying, just think about it.  But I know you already have weighed this, and continue to do so every day.

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #21 –
Quote from: fungalnet – on
In the rare case of a single user system how do you start a desktop or the xserver without a DM?




xdm?  I dm has nothing to do with starting it anyway.  You can (or you used to be able) to just type startx

man xinit.  Of course they broke that because they insist that X has to be "derooted" and run through .... systemd.

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #22 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on

I would end by saying, just think about it.  But I know you already have weighed this, and continue to do so every day.


Yep, bottom line is, we do us no favor ripping it all out, it would amount to more work and more complaints.

I told you alreadey once, what you seek you will find with gentoo, which is a source distro and you easily control what you build with the use flags.
Simply said, I am not going to try to square the circle on a binary rolling distro, which is permamently moving, even more so, since the systemd octopus spread its many tentacles.

Next bottleneck will be dbus-broker they push after their kdbus disaster.

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #23 –
@mrbrklyn @artoo

Since *dbus and gentoo were mentioned you would probably find this project/discussion interesting. 

https://sysdfree.wordpress.com/232  Make sure you read through the comments which some are more interesting than the article content.

In an arch based system disabling dbus made many things fall apart all at once.

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #24 –
Quote from: artoo – on
Xorg is mature, but has shortcomings, wayland is the thing they want to replace it with, and this needs a session tracker etc, for which logind is sufficient and eventually made for.

Sway actually works without logind/elogind (although I build it with elogind support of course). Those guys have made Wayland very usable for me and honestly more stable than my experience with Xorg at this point.

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #25 –
Quote from: Dudemanguy – on
Sway actually works without logind/elogind (although I build it with elogind support of course). Those guys have made Wayland very usable for me and honestly more stable than my experience with Xorg at this point.


I have X running for 20+ years.  How is it more stable?

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #26 –
Quote from: fungalnet – on
@mrbrklyn @artoo

Since *dbus and gentoo were mentioned you would probably find this project/discussion interesting. 

https://sysdfree.wordpress.com/232  Make sure you read through the comments which some are more interesting than the article content.

In an arch based system disabling dbus made many things fall apart all at once.

Kirill Timofeev is a troll

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #27 –
Quote
For the first case, it’s actually curious. Winetricks itself is a bash script. That means that you download its source, run the file manually, and it works almost perfectly. It depended on the DBus stack because of xdg-open

I have had to delete xgd-open manually to prevent it from crashing my box.  It is a disaster. 

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #28 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on

I have X running for 20+ years.  How is it more stable?

X is a giant mess of hacks that works... mostly. There was that bug not too long ago that crashed Xorg on nouveau drivers, but not Wayland. X itself is also a bit of a security nightmare given that clients can freely talk to each other (not the case in Wayland). Wayland certainly has its drawbacks. It's more bareboned, so you're more reliant on whoever writes the compositor to do a good job (the wlroots guys have done a fantastic job so far). But in the end you have a simpler, more efficient protocol that cuts out a ton of pointless middleman cruft Xorg does. I can't speak for other compositors (like whatever Gnome or KDE uses), but wlroots is really nice, impressive work.

Re: Semi random thinking out loud

Reply #29 –
I think the big final switch to Wayland is pencilled in for the same date as the big final switch to ipv6..............