Artix Linux => Package management => Topic started by: Fox on 08 July 2025, 21:39:08
Title: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: Fox on 08 July 2025, 21:39:08
I don't use Wayland for anything, yet so many things have it as a hard dependency. I could force remove Wayland and it's other garbage, but they will just come back over time as things are updated. Does IgnorePkg in `/etc/pacman.conf` prevent dependencies from being installed or just updated?
Also, is it possible for the maintainers of Artix packages to change Wayland to an optional dependency by default? Perhaps that should be the standard. Especially in the case of Plasma.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: nous on 09 July 2025, 12:04:43
It would take lots of changes to change these dependencies. It won't hurt you though if your session uses X11.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: artoo on 09 July 2025, 12:08:52
Also, is it possible for the maintainers of Artix packages to change Wayland to an optional dependency by default? Perhaps that should be the standard. Especially in the case of Plasma.
Yes and no. It is possible but has no benefits. Plasma pulls wayland, but we provide x11 session, so it is up to the user if x11/xlibre or wayland.
If you really want kind of minimalist system, try gentoo, a binary distro such as artix is not really fitting your bill if you want to avoid certain components. A binary distro requires compromises, a custom tailored system based on eg gentoo does not.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 09 July 2025, 12:57:08
Quote
but we provide x11 session,
Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is an x11 session?
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: artoo on 09 July 2025, 13:00:01
Which is useful, but I don't think this is the context that you mean. Are you referring to an X11 process on top of wayland, or a client and child process of wayland?
I get very confused with terms like "session". Linux has processes. They can be light weights processes. So session throws me for a loop.
https://www.baeldung.com/linux/process-vs-thread
Another such term that confuses me is "seat".... but I will leave that for a different thread.
I know this sounds very ignorant on my part, but I have been avoiding much of this client side layers for a long time, and intentionally, to the point now that I feel I am not even talking about the same OS or the same Tech Jargon. It feels like the first thing the Free Desktop folks did was build a new language to justify (or describe to be more kind) their design decisions.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: Dastard on 09 July 2025, 16:55:04
Which is useful, but I don't think this is the context that you mean. Are you referring to an X11 process on top of wayland, or a client and child process of wayland?
I get very confused with terms like "session". Linux has processes. They can be light weights processes. So session throws me for a loop.
It's called a session because it runs from login to logout, I think it's a pretty apt name for it. And although wayland can spawn programs in x11 for compatibility purposes, this refers to x11 alone.
Also, is it possible for the maintainers of Artix packages to change Wayland to an optional dependency by default? Perhaps that should be the standard. Especially in the case of Plasma.
Plasma has pretty much adopted wayland as the main display server in the past year or so, and besides if you're using something as "bloated" as plasma, I don't understand why you'd worry about the couple MB of disk space removing wayland would give you. As for me personally I've had 0 hickups with wayland, and the only reason I would use x11 is for DWM.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: lotuskip on 09 July 2025, 17:26:52
It's called a session because it runs from login to logout, I think it's a pretty apt name for it. And although wayland can spawn programs in x11 for compatibility purposes, this refers to x11 alone.
But what if I login to a tty, do some stuff there, and only later 'startx'? And X predates the term "session" in this meaning by some decades!
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: gripped on 09 July 2025, 18:33:28
Off Topic Spoiler (click to show/hide)
To me a 'session' involves an awful lot of Lager and quite probably some Rum. The potatoes are on so I'm getting one started. Pie and Mash tonight (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/d1/3e/6ed13e2dbdf8c1378fcaf2588e5610f2.jpg)
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: cds on 09 July 2025, 18:50:36
Plasma has pretty much adopted Wayland as the main display server in the past year or so, and besides if you're using something as "bloated" as plasma, I don't understand why you'd worry about the couple MB of disk space removing Wayland would give you. As for me personally I've had 0 hiccups with Wayland, and the only reason I would use x11 is for DWM.
Of course, you can use DWL if you want to stay on Wayland... DWL has a way to go to be on-par with DWM (IMHO, of course). I managed to get it up and running but there are not enough patches (well, the ones I use anyways) and really don't want to invest time trying to convert/hack/whatever to get things working in Wayland with the patches I do use or created. Not even touching the apps I use.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: Dastard on 09 July 2025, 19:58:28
But what if I login to a tty, do some stuff there, and only later 'startx'? And X predates the term "session" in this meaning by some decades!
Then you have a waking session in which you started a system power on session which booted into a linux kernel session that let you start a x11 session that let you have a browser session during which you made this post. Noone argued that "session" was an x-related term, and I would advise against using a tech forum as a replacement for social interaction.
Of course, you can use DWL if you want to stay on Wayland... DWL has a way to go to be on-par with DWM (IMHO, of course). I managed to get it up and running but there are not enough patches (well, the ones I use anyways) and really don't want to invest time trying to convert/hack/whatever to get things working in Wayland with the patches I do use or created. Not even touching the apps I use.
Oh cool, I hadn't heard of DWL, I'll give it a look. Though there's already some other quite popular and well supported window managers for wayland, I've heard a lot of praise for hyprland though I haven't played around with anything new recently.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: cds on 09 July 2025, 20:07:22
But what if I login to a tty, do some stuff there, and only later 'startx'? And X predates the term "session" in this meaning by some decades!
Then you have a waking session in which you started a system power on session which booted into a linux kernel session that let you start a x11 session that let you have a browser session during which you made this post. Noone argued that "session" was an x-related term, and I would advise against using a tech forum as a replacement for social interaction.
Of course, you can use DWL if you want to stay on Wayland... DWL has a way to go to be on-par with DWM (IMHO, of course). I managed to get it up and running but there are not enough patches (well, the ones I use anyways) and really don't want to invest time trying to convert/hack/whatever to get things working in Wayland with the patches I do use or created. Not even touching the apps I use.
Oh cool, I hadn't heard of DWL, I'll give it a look. Though there's already some other quite popular and well supported window managers for wayland, I've heard a lot of praise for hyprland though I haven't played around with anything new recently.
If you do try it out, note the version of wlroots you will use. Pair that with the proper version of DWL and you shouldn't have issues compiling. Other than that, there isn't much more I can offer that are "gotchas"
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: calvinh on 09 July 2025, 20:28:00
Then you have a waking session in which you started a system power on session which booted into a linux kernel session that let you start a x11 session that let you have a browser session during which you made this post. Noone argued that "session" was an x-related term, and I would advise against using a tech forum as a replacement for social interaction.
Oh cool, I hadn't heard of DWL, I'll give it a look. Though there's already some other quite popular and well supported window managers for wayland, I've heard a lot of praise for hyprland though I haven't played around with anything new recently.
If you do try it out, note the version of wlroots you will use. Pair that with the proper version of DWL and you shouldn't have issues compiling. Other than that, there isn't much more I can offer that are "gotchas"
I was using dwl on Arch before trying this new(old) xlibre stuff on Artix. Most patches work well with dwl 0.7 & wlroots 0.18. It was pretty stable. Unless you need some specific new feature from wlroots 0.19, I'd suggest that you stay with the stable version (0.7 & 0.18).
It's called a session because it runs from login to logout, I think it's a pretty apt name for it. And although wayland can spawn programs in x11 for compatibility purposes, this refers to x11 alone.
People can make things up but this is technology where words have specific and exact meanings. Linux does not have "session"s. It has processes - heavy or light, which can be child processes or not. It uses fork() and clone() and you can see the processes with the ps command or the pstree command. Processes are sent to the scheduler to receive their share of time and share a memory stack which can be segregated and which is processed by a CPU which is a Newman machine.
None of which has the word "session". So when the word session is used, I am confused to what you mean.
I run several X server processes at the same time on different ttys, btw, for different work.
You are saying a session is a program that runs with login and ends with logout? That doesn't even describe that X or Wayland does. XDM or whatever greeting application you are running, is ran from the system as a service from the init. A service is a process started by the init system which runs as a dameon. So with a conventional graphics login, X or Wayland is running before you login and still runs upon exit. If that is not correct, I am happen to be corrected.
https://tldp.org/LDP/tlk/kernel/processes.html
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: Dastard on 09 July 2025, 21:27:32
It's called a session because it runs from login to logout, I think it's a pretty apt name for it. And although wayland can spawn programs in x11 for compatibility purposes, this refers to x11 alone.
People can make things up but this is technology where words have specific and exact meanings. Linux does not have "session"s. It has processes - heavy or light, which can be child processes or not. It uses fork() and clone() and you can see the processes with the ps command or the pstree command. Processes are sent to the scheduler to receive their share of time and share a memory stack which can be segregated and which is processed by a CPU which is a Newman machine.
None of which has the word "session". So when the word session is used, I am confused to what you mean.
I run several X server processes at the same time on different ttys, btw, for different work.
You are saying a session is a program that runs with login and ends with logout? That doesn't even describe that X or Wayland does. XDM or whatever greeting application you are running, is ran from the system as a service from the init. A service is a process started by the init system which runs as a dameon. So with a conventional graphics login, X or Wayland is running before you login and still runs upon exit. If that is not correct, I am happen to be corrected.
https://tldp.org/LDP/tlk/kernel/processes.html
You are either heavily on the spectrum, or peaking in dunning-kruger. While session may not a rigorously defined term, everyone understand what it means in the context it is used in. Whether you are trying to flex your knowledge or are genuinely confused, you can only resolve that with introspection, derailing threads won't get you anywhere.
Then you have a waking session in which you started a system power on session which booted into a linux kernel session that let you start a x11 session that let you have a browser session during which you made this post. Noone argued that "session" was an x-related term, and I would advise against using a tech forum as a replacement for social interaction.
Cheers
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 09 July 2025, 23:53:13
You are either heavily on the spectrum, or peaking in dunning-kruger. While session may not a rigorously defined term, everyone understand what it means in the context it is used in. Whether you are trying to flex your knowledge or are genuinely confused, you can only resolve that with introspection, derailing threads won't get you anywhere.
Don't be a PRICK and one of the two of us in the conversation actually has a medical license and that would not be you. Since you are an expert, you explain what a session is. So far, you have struck out. I am waiting for a definition and that definition has to conform the reality of real Linux... not made up BS. Instead of just answering the question, you've decided to be a prick. which in fact, derails the thread.
So I will repeat, I am ignorant of what session means in this regard. If you can explain it, then do so. If you want to just blow smoke ... you can find a different target. I originally apologized for my ignorance, but what I don't apologize for is you slip slop non-answer, or your aggressive response.
What I am digging at here, BTW, is that there has been far too much sloppy use of language with regard to this technology, especially in anything that emulates from the Free Desktop world, and from systemd proponents. When Artooo says session, I want to know if he means an independent X process that runs client software natively, or some plugin to Wayland, or the X compositor for wayland, or something else. They are all different, especially within the context of this thread.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 10 July 2025, 00:19:24
Plasma has pretty much adopted wayland as the main display server in the past year or so, and besides if you're using something as "bloated" as plasma, I don't understand why you'd worry about the couple MB of disk space removing wayland would give you. As for me personally I've had 0 hickups with wayland, and the only reason I would use x11 is for DWM.
They are not worried about that. They are worried about being trapped into Wayland for the future and be subject to the whims of that coding team. He prefers the freedom that X provides and the flexibility of its network aware architecture.
But you know that, right?, which is the cause of the hostility.
I agree with you, BTW,, that Plasma is bloated and it runs against the grain in some respects of why people might prefer X over wayland, but this combination has been used for well over a decade and some people want to have bloated Plasma without being locked into Wayland. Not wanting to be locked into Wayland is a significant and rational desire for even those that use QT libraries.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: Shoun2137 on 10 July 2025, 00:20:31
Since you are an expert, you explain what a session is.
He already did. And it was fair explanation of shell sessions in hindsight, and would be understandable at least for someone completely casual "into computahs". You're just nitpicking at his words...
Don't be a PRICK and one of the two of us in the conversation actually has a medical license and that would not be you. [...] Since you are an expert, you explain what a session is.
Nobody is flaunting their "expert" status except you, and what's even funnier is that it's wrong since you're committing an appeal to authority fallacy by applying your medical credentials to IT tech. I don't see a connection. Judging by your website, which is still on HTTP with broken Apache configurations everywhere, your claimed IT experience is completely undermined. Are you seriously OK? Because I think you should take a few days off the forum, take your family someplace nice and cool off my friend...
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 10 July 2025, 00:28:30
Nobody is flaunting their "expert" status except you
People using advanced medical jargon that they don't understand while making armchair diagnosis on the internet is an old game. It has been noted and called. Don't worry about my website. It serves my purpose and has been doing so since 1998. As for the problems I am having with the terminology, I explained it in detail already. Except it or not. That is no reason to make armchair diagnosis to troll someone with.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: gripped on 10 July 2025, 00:43:03
Quote
and one of the two of us in the conversation actually has a medical license
Anti Nowhere League say it better than I could (original better than the Metallica cover) Give it a rest for the love of Linus
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 10 July 2025, 00:47:02
Of course, you can use DWL if you want to stay on Wayland... DWL has a way to go to be on-par with DWM (IMHO, of course). I managed to get it up and running but there are not enough patches (well, the ones I use anyways) and really don't want to invest time trying to convert/hack/whatever to get things working in Wayland with the patches I do use or created. Not even touching the apps I use.
Oh cool, I hadn't heard of DWL, I'll give it a look. Though there's already some other quite popular and well supported window managers for wayland, I've heard a lot of praise for hyprland though I haven't played around with anything new recently. [/quote]
Actually river (https://codeberg.org/river/river/) is a wayland compositor very regarded as well as being pretty DWM like, and also on the dynamic tiling compositor by itself.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: replabrobin on 10 July 2025, 10:41:56
According to google (now our AI overlord) linux processes appear to have something called sessions.
The setsid (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/setsid.2.html) command can be used to start a new 'session'.
I'm not sure exactly what defines a 'session', but it seems to be describable by an integer equivalent in size to the PID_t and can be used in pkill commands to remove all 'session' members.
I know from messing with slim/openbox that the slim 'session' propagates to openbox and its children. If any of the autostart kids becomes detached (so its parent is pid 1) the 'session' id remains that of slim.
I suspect session and process group are more or less the same.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 10 July 2025, 13:14:49
According to google (now our AI overlord) linux processes appear to have something called sessions.
The setsid (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/setsid.2.html) command can be used to start a new 'session'.
I'm not sure exactly what defines a 'session', but it seems to be describable by an integer equivalent in size to the PID_t and can be used in pkill commands to remove all 'session' members.
I know from messing with slim/openbox that the slim 'session' propagates to openbox and its children. If any of the autostart kids becomes detached (so its parent is pid 1) the 'session' id remains that of slim.
I suspect session and process group are more or less the same.
That appears to lead to an answer..
Quote
The autogroup feature Since Linux 2.6.38, the kernel provides a feature known as autogrouping to improve interactive desktop performance in the face of multiprocess, CPU-intensive workloads such as building the Linux kernel with large numbers of parallel build processes (i.e., the make(1) -j flag).
This feature operates in conjunction with the CFS scheduler and requires a kernel that is configured with CONFIG_SCHED_AUTOGROUP. On a running system, this feature is enabled or disabled via the file /proc/sys/kernel/sched_autogroup_enabled; a value of 0 disables the feature, while a value of 1 enables it. The default value in this file is 1, unless the kernel was booted with the noautogroup parameter.
A new autogroup is created when a new session is created via setsid(2); this happens, for example, when a new terminal window is started. A new process created by fork(2) inherits its parent's autogroup membership. Thus, all of the processes in a session are members of the same autogroup. An autogroup is automatically destroyed when the last process in the group terminates.
When autogrouping is enabled, all of the members of an autogroup are placed in the same kernel scheduler "task group". The CFS scheduler employs an algorithm that equalizes the distribution of CPU cycles across task groups. The benefits of this for interactive desktop performance can be described via the following example.
Suppose that there are two autogroups competing for the same CPU (i.e., presume either a single CPU system or the use of taskset(1) to confine all the processes to the same CPU on an SMP system). The first group contains ten CPU-bound processes from a kernel build started with make -j10. The other contains a single CPU- bound process: a video player. The effect of autogrouping is that the two groups will each receive half of the CPU cycles. That is, the video player will receive 50% of the CPU cycles, rather than just 9% of the cycles, which would likely lead to degraded video playback. The situation on an SMP system is more complex, but the general effect is the same: the scheduler distributes CPU cycles across task groups such that an autogroup that contains a large number of CPU-bound processes does not end up hogging CPU cycles at the expense of the other jobs on the system.
It is amazing what can be learned when people aren't being hostile and the smoke clears.
sched(7) — Linux manual page
So it seems essentially a session is a set of processes that are grouped together to help the scheduler balance loads between different sessions that might otherwise overload the CPU and cause a deleterious user experience as otherwise seemingly random CPU preemptions of applications that share a common environment would be blocked.
I have a few technical thoughts about that, but it doesn't really matter what I think, it is already done as it is. Maybe it is time to re-look at the schedulers new source code. This must have made Linus crazy.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: Ambie on 10 July 2025, 13:44:19
It is amazing what can be learned when people aren't being hostile and the smoke clears.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Please consider hide your offtopic posts in other people's topics in spoiler tag or, even better, do not post it there at all. If your goal on this forum is not to provoke flood and if you have some extraneous questions and misunderstandings then start new topic. Thank you.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 10 July 2025, 13:59:52
It is amazing what can be learned when people aren't being hostile and the smoke clears.
Please consider hide your offtopic posts in other people's topics in spoiler tag or, even better, do not post it there at all. If your goal on this forum is not to provoke flood and if you have some extraneous questions and misunderstandings then start new topic. Thank you.
The only thing off topic was the hate mongering.
But let me show you a forum function that might help you...
According to google (now our AI overlord) linux processes appear to have something called sessions. The setsid (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/setsid.2.html) command can be used to start a new 'session'. I'm not sure exactly what defines a 'session', but it seems to be describable by an integer equivalent in size to the PID_t and can be used in pkill commands to remove all 'session' members. I know from messing with slim/openbox that the slim 'session' propagates to openbox and its children. If any of the autostart kids becomes detached (so its parent is pid 1) the 'session' id remains that of slim. I suspect session and process group are more or less the same.
Guys you are waaay overcomplicating this... "Session" as a concept indicates user's timed (logged) interactions throughout their PC usage. Artoo and Dastard used this word merely as concept of time-bounded period of interaction between a user and a system, as mental shortcuts for this. Why are we even discussing simple shit as this thing? This reminds me of those wayland elaborations that point to absolutely nowhere.
Please consider hide your offtopic posts in other people's topics in spoiler tag or, even better, do not post it there at all. If your goal on this forum is not to provoke flood and if you have some extraneous questions and misunderstandings then start new topic. Thank you.
Sadly baked-in forum mechanisms to hide user posts completely and ignorelist doesn't work for me due to leaving out the user's post there anyway, so psychologically you're still tempted to read those shitposts, so for that we can use a little trick with browser's clientside userstyle css addons like stylus, take a look at this snippet:
@-moz-document domain("forum.artixlinux.org") { /*where XXXX is user's profile_ID, for example mine is 3660, so put href="https://forum.artixlinux.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3660" to hide my posts entirely :) */ .post_wrapper:has(.name[href="https://forum.artixlinux.org/index.php?action=profile;u=XXXX"]) { display: none !important; } }
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: Ambie on 10 July 2025, 14:36:37
Thanks, it may be someday useful to me. But for now I'm more worried about "question-answer" consistency which I think should exist on technical forums and which is sadly often polluted by that kind of flood-provoking posts.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 10 July 2025, 16:17:33
Guys you are waaay overcomplicating this... "Session" as a concept indicates user's timed (logged)
No, we are not, but thank you for adding to the confusion, since session can mean several different things in this context of removing wayland from the system. Now that it is specifically defined, it leaves this question which is directly on this topic. To clarify artoo's statement my question is "So are you saying that removing waylands packages and only installed xlibre or X.org will inevitably break most graphic user interfaces? And is that because they expect a wayland session (which implies it needs to be up and running) to be present? Or can plasma still run on some version of X without any wayland, which would imply at least theoretically, that we can remove wayland just as we have removed systemd. It might be more work than the dev team cares to tackle, but in theory it should be able to be done.
Now try to dismiss any more emotional outburst and remain on the topic.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: Fox on 10 July 2025, 21:06:02
Yes and no. It is possible but has no benefits. Plasma pulls wayland, but we provide x11 session, so it is up to the user if x11/xlibre or wayland.
If you really want kind of minimalist system, try gentoo, a binary distro such as artix is not really fitting your bill if you want to avoid certain components. A binary distro requires compromises, a custom tailored system based on eg gentoo does not.
Let's say hypothetically that Plasma receives statistics that >99% of concurrent users with telemetry enabled have Wayland running, so they decide to change the session type to always be Wayland in an update, or perhaps they remove functionality that will effectively prevent Plasma from running on an X server. If the dependency on Wayland were removed or made optional, this could not occur, or at the very least it would be unlikely to occur. Artix might be small and unable to move that metric by even a percentage point, but what Artix can do is set a standard that other distros may follow. Suddenly Arch is being asked why their Plasma package depends on Wayland when it's optional on Artix
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: gripped on 10 July 2025, 23:03:29
It might be more work that the dev team cares to tackle, but in theory it should be able to be done.
Yes to the first point as Artoo and Nous clarified 2nd and 3rd posts in. Without a doubt to the second. But.....
Quote
which would imply at least theoretically, that we can remove wayland just as we have removed systemd.
A lot of users here want to use wayland though. They may be a bit miffed if it is removed.
Though I dislike Wayland as a DE personally, I also use it as Gamescope is the only solution I've found to get Elite Dangerous displaying on triple monitors.
But when I not playing that (haven't for months) there is no wayland anything running
Quote
And is that because they expect a wayland session (which implies it needs to be up and running) to be present?
Not AFAIK.
They (KDE) are getting sneaky imho. Or maybe it's just an oversight? Since the splitting of kwin the 'desktop effect' that does the virtual desktop cube thing doesn't work on X anymore. The problem is simply that /usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin/effects/configs/kwin_cube_config.so Also needs to be in /usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin-x11/effects/configs But the package it comes from kdeplasma-addons doesn't bother to include an X version. And having two versions seems a waste of space anyway as with just a link to the wayland version it works fine on X.
Like I say maybe just an oversight ? Or maybe "No shiny toys for the Luddites" ?
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 11 July 2025, 04:16:09
/usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin/effects/configs/kwin_cube_config.so Also needs to be in /usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin-x11/effects/configs But the package it comes from kdeplasma-addons doesn't bother to include an X version. And having two versions seems a waste of space anyway as with just a link to the wayland version it works fine on X.
Yes (though I made it a soft link) My point is just that the X version loses a feature compared to the now default wayland version for no technical reason. The 'Hide Cursor' effect is also missing.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 11 July 2025, 11:32:46
Yes (though I made it a soft link) My point is just that the X version loses a feature compared to the now default wayland version for no technical reason. The 'Hide Cursor' effect is also missing.
Thank you, You might not agree with me from time to time, but I appreciate the time and effort you make to explain things thoroughly which greatly expands and improves my knowledge. I admire and treasure the effort to expound on these details and the ad hoc and voluntary tech support you provide for many people, making reading your posts some of the most productive and enjoyable on the forum. You remind me of an old friend by the name of Billy Donahue.
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: gripped on 11 July 2025, 13:05:41
Thank you, You might not agree with me from time to time, but I appreciate the time and effort you make to explain things thoroughly which greatly expands and improves my knowledge. I admire and treasure the effort to expound on these details and the ad hoc and voluntary tech support you provide for many people, making reading your posts some of the most productive and enjoyable on the forum. You remind me of an old friend by the name of Billy Donahue.
Oh bless. I'm not the most agreeable person. Agreeableness is a bad English trait. "Mustn’t grumble", "Keep calm and and carry on" is how we get to :
Quote
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever
More Eric. Was Billy incredibly handsome as well? ;) We're all in it together and won't always agree. 8)
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 11 July 2025, 22:11:00
Yes and no. It is possible but has no benefits. Plasma pulls wayland, but we provide x11 session, so it is up to the user if x11/xlibre or wayland.
If you really want kind of minimalist system, try gentoo, a binary distro such as artix is not really fitting your bill if you want to avoid certain components. A binary distro requires compromises, a custom tailored system based on eg gentoo does not.
Let's say hypothetically that Plasma receives statistics that >99% of concurrent users with telemetry enabled have Wayland running, so they decide to change the session type to always be Wayland in an update, or perhaps they remove functionality that will effectively prevent Plasma from running on an X server. If the dependency on Wayland were removed or made optional, this could not occur, or at the very least it would be unlikely to occur. Artix might be small and unable to move that metric by even a percentage point, but what Artix can do is set a standard that other distros may follow. Suddenly Arch is being asked why their Plasma package depends on Wayland when it's optional on Artix
For context, KDE's stance on X11 as of now is as follows:
X11 is in the news again, so I thought it would make sense to be clear about the Plasma team’s plans for X11 support going forward.
Current status: Plasma’s X11 session continues to be maintained.
Specifically, that means:
We’ll make sure Plasma continues to compile and deploy on X11. Bug reports about the Plasma X11 session being horribly broken (for example, you can’t log in) will be fixed. Very bad X11-specific regressions will probably be fixed eventually. Less-bad X11-specific bugs will probably not be fixed unless someone pays for it. X11-specific features will definitely not be implemented unless someone pays for it.
Source: https://pointieststick.com/
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: gripped on 20 July 2025, 21:24:13
At this point in time, our telemetry says that a majority of Plasma users are already using the Wayland session. Currently 73% of Plasma 6 users who have turned on telemetry are using the Wayland session, and a little over 60% of all telemetry-activating users (including Plasma 5 users) are on Wayland.
The majority of users with any sense use Xlibre/Xorg and turn off telemetry. And they know this.
Disingenuousburger
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: sudo_halt on 20 July 2025, 22:01:15
At this point in time, our telemetry says that a majority of Plasma users are already using the Wayland session. Currently 73% of Plasma 6 users who have turned on telemetry are using the Wayland session, and a little over 60% of all telemetry-activating users (including Plasma 5 users) are on Wayland.
The majority of users with any sense use Xlibre/Xorg and turn off telemetry. And they know this.
Disingenuousburger
They're still supporting it regardless of telemetry, unlike e.g. GNOME (and Budgie)
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: gripped on 20 July 2025, 22:19:40
They're still supporting it regardless of telemetry, unlike e.g. GNOME (and Budgie)
Yes I can read. I was commenting on the disingenuous use of telemetry to back up the claim that the majority of plasma users are using wayland. As Nate say's:
Quote
Most major distros have already moved their Plasma sessions to Wayland by default
So those who know no better will be using wayland. Those who know how to switch to X11 are highly likely to also be the sort of people who also turn of the telemetry (or certainly don't turn it on). So the telemetry is a very poor indication of anything.
Hover over my username and the telemetry will show I'm using windows 10. But I'm not. So much for telemetry.
kdeareantiXburger
Title: Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone
Post by: mrbrklyn on 26 July 2025, 11:24:28
The use of volunteer telemetry as proof that they no longer need to support X is the kind of abuse of language that often comes from the free Desktop folks to lay ground work for their middleware monstrosity which controls the system and makes it hard to use or understand. It is a proven method for them and it has been most effective. This is why one needs to be specific when speaking of sessions and seats.
Consider this fallacy... and abuse of language.
60% of the telemtry (which is not remotely reflective of real use cases for KDE or Plasma), supports the use of Wayland. Therefor, along this line of reasoning, distros are justified in this opinion to shut out the other 40% and strip plasma bare of its X support. - this from a group of people that once criticized gnu/linux because it gives users too much choice.
This is really twisted coming from the cadre of hackers who wrote 1000s of lines of complex code to invent SEATS for a use case where multiple users who share the same CPU and GPU and I/O bus on a single computer can have separate "sessions" which run simultaneously. It is a use case that has nearly zero end users, but was deemed vital, as it did an end run around the entire tty system while needing to rewrite log in systems, PAM and device driver interfaces (hence dbus).
The Chutzpah...
None of this is about usability, or the user experience. It is about control and self-aggrandizing ones status in life, and getting well paying jobs (at Microsoft)
I am all for well paying jobs and commercial exploitation of software.... when it adds something useful and doesn't violate a half century of OS design.