General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: m4rtin23 on 05 October 2025, 20:50:16
Title: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 05 October 2025, 20:50:16
I'll make this brief, both Systemd and Wayland are Linux-centric software and have little regard for other systems. There's this negative reception towards people who promote alternatives, depicting them as unfounded. I find this strange, Linux users, who are supposed to understand the value of options and alternatives, and the existence of this "marginalization" are the ones having the initiative of mocking other users. To be fair, I'm mostly talking about certain people who have strong voices, but still, am I missing something? What's the motivation behind that?
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: ####### on 06 October 2025, 16:23:53
Non-Systemd and to a lesser degree Linux in general probably lack a sufficient marketing team as much as anything, despite having a great deal of technical ability. A commercial company like RedHat will naturally have a sales team, they want their free software to be used widely to create interest in their other paid products, but who is promoting and encouraging the use of OpenRC, Runit, Dinit and so on? The people who are good at this kind of thing are typically not software developers as well.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 06 October 2025, 16:52:53
From a birds-eye view: Having, maintaining, and thriving in control/power is what it all boils down to.
AstroTurf, erosion, and being a parasite are the tools of the trade.
The so called "strong voices" you speak of are only useful idiots. They're soulless Bugmen waiting for new orders of what idea to proselytize next. Remove them from the chessboard and nothing will change. Except maybe a different type of useful idiot.
Best to ignore them unless you have leverage, resources, or an actionable plan to go against their masters. Helping out on those who can is viable as well.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: K0rpZ0uth on 08 October 2025, 18:37:50
SystemD and Wayland proponents are in the "New Thing Good/Old Thing Bad" seat, while those who aren't can sometimes be the inverse, I've seen (and experienced) examples where that's justified. Try using new tools because they're pretty and are packed with features and segmentation faults, while the old stuff is ugly and isn't getting inundated with new breakages. Emphasis being new.
I'd rather old and ugly tools that get the job done than newer, "visually elegant", and less legacy-compatible tools.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: lotuskip on 09 October 2025, 08:04:43
Agreeing with much of what's said above, I add that historically there has been much ignorance among the developers of all this "new" stuff. They might, for example, come from the M$ Windows desktop world of the early 2000s, and entering a UNIX environment find something "missing", when in actuality it is only designed better in UNIX, and so they need to implement the thing that is "missing". They are programmers, software engineers, so they want to create instead of learn. They are mediocre programmers, so their implementation is sub-par in comparison to UNIX tradition. Eventually they kind of realize their error, and because of the size of their ego and perhaps some financial pushes, they find themselves reimplementing something that has existed in UNIX since the 1970s, and of course they have to wrap it up as "new, up-to-date features".
The above is but one aspect of the matter. The monster has many sides and crevices.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: K0rpZ0uth on 10 October 2025, 16:49:10
For a more substantial take on both SystemD and Wayland...
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, without hyperbole, that SystemD is not an init system going by size and scope, it's an administrative framework. The most basic example of an init system is so boring it would make prospective new users scratch their heads about problems they've encountered using it, and wonder why SystemD touches things like session management and your HOME partition. The Busybox version of Runit only branches out of the low-level utilities if you explicitly set it up to do so (think: OpenRC User-Services), with SystemD it's just a matter of fact regardless of any negative implications. Service "supervisor" shouldn't mean "greatly altering the behavior of /etc", that's not singular supervision, that's textbook wholesale administration of a crucial directory.
Wayland to this very day is only selling on looks and "security", the latter having its place on the horseshoe theory of security. If Xorg is a backdoor nightmare, then Wayland and its myriad of rigid protocols are going to be a massive brain fuck to circumnavigate once a CVE is inevitably brought up. Imagine fixing one Wayland protocol only for the solution to be heretical to another protocol and everything just falls apart like a house of cards. FreeDesktop took such an extreme approach to "security" that drawing window icons needs its own unique XDG protocol! Why the fuck is rendering an icon in the window decorations more complicated than providing a desktop manager with icons you can drag-and-drop? Wasting time on such frivolous engineering gospel is why Wayland is decades behind Xorg (Xlibre).
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: lq on 11 October 2025, 09:03:57
I'll make this brief, ( ... ) To be fair, I'm mostly talking about certain people who have strong voices, but still, am I missing something? What's the motivation behind that?
You haven't really understood the principle of open source.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 14 October 2025, 01:54:38
Quote
You haven't really understood the principle of open source.
And you like to make bold statements without providing any reasoning whatsoever.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 14 October 2025, 01:56:33
Non-Systemd and to a lesser degree Linux in general probably lack a sufficient marketing team as much as anything, despite having a great deal of technical ability.
While that might be generally true, it doesn't explain the behavior of certain people of criticizing the options others choose.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 14 October 2025, 02:00:51
The so called "strong voices" you speak of are only useful idiots. They're soulless Bugmen waiting for new orders of what idea to proselytize next. Remove them from the chessboard and nothing will change. Except maybe a different type of useful idiot.
Despite being hard to believe, I think that's probably the most feasible explanation.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 14 October 2025, 02:08:02
SystemD and Wayland proponents are in the "New Thing Good/Old Thing Bad" seat, while those who aren't can sometimes be the inverse, I've seen (and experienced) examples where that's justified. Try using new tools because they're pretty and are packed with features and segmentation faults, while the old stuff is ugly and isn't getting inundated with new breakages. Emphasis being new.
I'd rather old and ugly tools that get the job done than newer, "visually elegant", and less legacy-compatible tools.
Yeah, that also explains a lot of things. But, dinit, for example, is new and it doesn't receive a lot of attention; same with Xlibre (I understand that a counter argument could be that Xorg is an old protocol and having "barebones" init systems is an "old practice"). I think not picking the most widely used thing is the main contributor.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 14 October 2025, 02:09:41
Agreeing with much of what's said above, I add that historically there has been much ignorance among the developers of all this "new" stuff. They might, for example, come from the M$ Windows desktop world of the early 2000s, and entering a UNIX environment find something "missing", when in actuality it is only designed better in UNIX, and so they need to implement the thing that is "missing". They are programmers, software engineers, so they want to create instead of learn. They are mediocre programmers, so their implementation is sub-par in comparison to UNIX tradition. Eventually they kind of realize their error, and because of the size of their ego and perhaps some financial pushes, they find themselves reimplementing something that has existed in UNIX since the 1970s, and of course they have to wrap it up as "new, up-to-date features".
The above is but one aspect of the matter. The monster has many sides and crevices.
That's actually an interesting phenomenon, mind to share a concrete example?
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: ####### on 14 October 2025, 03:26:35
"While that might be generally true, it doesn't explain the behavior of certain people of criticizing the options others choose." I'm not sure of the psychological term but it seems a common flaw for humans to confuse personal choice with absolute truth then impose this on others because they have decided it's the best, when it really only applies to themselves. Think of children declaring my favorite toy / team or whatever is better than yours. It appears time and again in politics too, adults can also be affected if they don't attempt to avoid falling into this way of thinking.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: tintin on 14 October 2025, 05:40:15
Good wine needs no bush. *
* À bon vin point d'enseigne (In French).
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: lq on 14 October 2025, 08:43:20
What exactly are you trying to achieve with this thread?
Do I need to achieve something? If you mean to ask what my motivations are: to discuss things with others; if you ask for the topic of the discussion, I think it's clear: the reason why some people seem to be against projects of the like of Artix that are open to alternatives of Systemd and Wayland.
"Pertaining" I believe means relating and not necessarily "about". If you were thinking the title is not proper.
Am I misusing the forum?
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 14 October 2025, 13:50:32
"While that might be generally true, it doesn't explain the behavior of certain people of criticizing the options others choose." I'm not sure of the psychological term but it seems a common flaw for humans to confuse personal choice with absolute truth then impose this on others because they have decided it's the best, when it really only applies to themselves. Think of children declaring my favorite toy / team or whatever is better than yours. It appears time and again in politics too, adults can also be affected if they don't attempt to avoid falling into this way of thinking.
That makes tons of sense.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 14 October 2025, 13:53:54
I believe you are trying to say that things like Linux don't require marketing. I would say that although they don't need it, if they want a huge userbase, they could benefit from it.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 14 October 2025, 14:01:09
The so called "strong voices" you speak of are only useful idiots. They're soulless Bugmen waiting for new orders of what idea to proselytize next. Remove them from the chessboard and nothing will change. Except maybe a different type of useful idiot.
Despite being hard to believe, I think that's probably the most feasible explanation.
Good old pattern recognition makes this easier to believe: 1.) Identify the problem. - "Strong Voices" 2.) List the traits of the problem. - "Follow what we proselytize or you are enemy" 3.) Classify the problem. - "Wayland and SoystemD people"
Take in steps 1 and 2 and you'll realize that different classes intersect: "Wayland and SoystemD people", "Rust people", "mainstream media people (be it news or Hollywood)", "Pronouns in bio people", "Bluesky people", "Twitter before Elon people", etc. Can name much more, but that's a good starter.
With time you'll then be able to create a mental tree mapping of how it all works.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: K0rpZ0uth on 14 October 2025, 15:59:05
For a more substantial take on both SystemD and Wayland...
I wasn't taking about Wayland and Systemd per se, but thanks, I guess...
...Is this thread not about discussing SystemD or Wayland?
Try making any sense.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: dangsasquatch on 14 October 2025, 16:50:05
I think it's a mixed bag. -The corporate suits do seem to be trying to solidify control. With IBM looming above Red Hat, that's not a major leap to make. -After everything we've witnessed in the past 10 years I don't think it's conspiratorial at all to think that at least some influencers are getting paid to shill. -Some are just those who ALWAYS follow mainstream opinion and repeat it without really thinking about it. -Others are literally fanatical. Multiple times I've made comments somewhere online about using something other than systemd and the systemd zealots start raging. Or I'll mention I use X or Xlibre and the Wayland zealots start raging.
All of this nonsense assures me I'm in the right place.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 14 October 2025, 18:32:49
I think it's a mixed bag. -The corporate suits do seem to be trying to solidify control. With IBM looming above Red Hat, that's not a major leap to make. -After everything we've witnessed in the past 10 years I don't think it's conspiratorial at all to think that at least some influencers are getting paid to shill. -Some are just those who ALWAYS follow mainstream opinion and repeat it without really thinking about it. -Others are literally fanatical. Multiple times I've made comments somewhere online about using something other than systemd and the systemd zealots start raging. Or I'll mention I use X or Xlibre and the Wayland zealots start raging.
I think this the most complete explanation. And yes, influencers get paid to promote stuff, so I think that explains a lot.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 14 October 2025, 18:41:26
Despite being hard to believe, I think that's probably the most feasible explanation.
Good old pattern recognition makes this easier to believe: 1.) Identify the problem. - "Strong Voices" 2.) List the traits of the problem. - "Follow what we proselytize or you are enemy" 3.) Classify the problem. - "Wayland and SoystemD people"
Take in steps 1 and 2 and you'll realize that different classes intersect: "Wayland and SoystemD people", "Rust people", "mainstream media people (be it news or Hollywood)", "Pronouns in bio people", "Bluesky people", "Twitter before Elon people", etc. Can name much more, but that's a good starter.
With time you'll then be able to create a mental tree mapping of how it all works.
I don't think I agree with this. I'm simply not a huge fan of putting people into boxes. There might be a value in doing this, but I can't see how this can help.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 14 October 2025, 19:11:42
Good old pattern recognition makes this easier to believe: 1.) Identify the problem. - "Strong Voices" 2.) List the traits of the problem. - "Follow what we proselytize or you are enemy" 3.) Classify the problem. - "Wayland and SoystemD people"
Take in steps 1 and 2 and you'll realize that different classes intersect: "Wayland and SoystemD people", "Rust people", "mainstream media people (be it news or Hollywood)", "Pronouns in bio people", "Bluesky people", "Twitter before Elon people", etc. Can name much more, but that's a good starter.
With time you'll then be able to create a mental tree mapping of how it all works.
I don't think I agree with this. I'm simply not a huge fan of putting people into boxes. There might be a value in doing this, but I can't see how this can help.
Whether you are a fan of it or not is irrelevant. It has various terms to describe it: "demographic", "identity", "target audience", "fans", "group", etc. No one is an exception of this. For example: I belong in the "I don't like systemD" box. Pattern recognition simply helps and enables you to see the grand scheme of things.
I think it's a mixed bag. -The corporate suits do seem to be trying to solidify control. With IBM looming above Red Hat, that's not a major leap to make. -After everything we've witnessed in the past 10 years I don't think it's conspiratorial at all to think that at least some influencers are getting paid to shill. -Some are just those who ALWAYS follow mainstream opinion and repeat it without really thinking about it. -Others are literally fanatical. Multiple times I've made comments somewhere online about using something other than systemd and the systemd zealots start raging. Or I'll mention I use X or Xlibre and the Wayland zealots start raging.
I think this the most complete explanation. And yes, influencers get paid to promote stuff, so I think that explains a lot.
It is well laid-out. Just to add in: I have already hinted that earlier at the "Bugmen" and "masters".
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 14 October 2025, 19:20:26
Whether you are a fan of it or not is irrelevant. It has various terms to describe it: "demographic", "identity", "target audience", "fans", "group", etc. No one is an exception of this. For example: I belong in the "I don't like systemD" box. Pattern recognition simply helps and enables you to see the grand scheme of things.
Whether you are a fan of it or not is irrelevant. It has various terms to describe it: "demographic", "identity", "target audience", "fans", "group", etc. No one is an exception of this. For example: I belong in the "I don't like systemD" box. Pattern recognition simply helps and enables you to see the grand scheme of things.
It is well laid-out. Just to add in: I have already hinted that earlier at the "Bugmen" and "masters".
Yes, you did. Your answer, however, implied some type of affiliation; money seems like the most plausible motivator.
I can partly agree with this. Since some entities push X idea(s) even if a lot of people are not a fan of it. Changing the wording in version control systems (from master to main), Rust in the kernel, and ubuntu's snaps for example.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 15 October 2025, 00:29:54
I can partly agree with this. Since some entities push X idea(s) even if a lot of people are not a fan of it.
Let me see if I understand, you think that an influencer would reject money if a larger audience didn't like the ideas and that that they would only push unlikable ideas if there's some type of ideology behind? That would make an intelligent influencer, but I'm pretty sure money moves people quite effectively.
Changing the wording in version control systems (from master to main), Rust in the kernel, and ubuntu's snaps for example.
I can see external interests behind snaps and Rust in the kernel. I can't see why anyone outside of Canonical(without involving money) would want to push the idea of snaps, though. Changing the master-branch's name doesn't seem to be the type of thing where there's a leader behind to take some form of benefit. It's ideological, but I don't see the master & useful idiot dynamic. And ideologies aside, I do prefer the name "main" for master-branches.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 15 October 2025, 01:15:32
1.) As I've said, partly. Because in your sample, that is valid. Although in other samples. Not always. 2.) External interest does not equate to the majority. More prefer flatpak than snaps. Rust in the kernel is pushed by ideologues. Linus caved in. Just like adding in the COC to the kernel.
Then you lack the info for it. I'd like to elaborate, but it will become extremely political and I don't want to turn this thread into a shit storm. Although a hint would suffice: "useful idiot" != "complete idiot".
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: m4rtin23 on 15 October 2025, 02:51:10
1.) As I've said, partly. Because in your sample, that is valid. Although in other samples. Not always. 2.) External interest does not equate to the majority. More prefer flatpak than snaps. Rust in the kernel is pushed by ideologues. Linus caved in. Just like adding in the COC to the kernel.
Then you lack the info for it. I'd like to elaborate, but it will become extremely political and I don't want to turn this thread into a shit storm. Although a hint would suffice: "useful idiot" != "complete idiot".
That's a sober decision. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 15 October 2025, 13:16:27
1.) As I've said, partly. Because in your sample, that is valid. Although in other samples. Not always. 2.) External interest does not equate to the majority. More prefer flatpak than snaps. Rust in the kernel is pushed by ideologues. Linus caved in. Just like adding in the COC to the kernel.
Then you lack the info for it. I'd like to elaborate, but it will become extremely political and I don't want to turn this thread into a shit storm. Although a hint would suffice: "useful idiot" != "complete idiot".
That's a sober decision. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Thanks for being cordial. I appreciate it. :)
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: Zendjinn on 15 October 2025, 13:56:11
I just want to say it's great to see an intelligent discussion about a potentially divisive subject. Bravo!
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: dangsasquatch on 15 October 2025, 15:19:23
Quote
It is well laid-out. Just to add in: I have already hinted that earlier at the "Bugmen" and "masters".
Apologies if I repeated. I wanted to put my thoughts down before I had to head out, and didn't have much time to read.
Title: Re: Thoughts pertaining Systemd and Wayland
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 15 October 2025, 15:32:07