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Topic: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd (Read 2130 times) previous topic - next topic
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GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Artist have in the `omniverse` repository "rEFInd" with Artix-Logo and ZFS-EFI-drivers.

Could the Calamares-Installer (GUI-Installer) offer to choose between GRUB and rEFInd?

Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #1 –
That's not easily possible, because calamares extracts a squash image.
This means, we would have to make refind default on efi iso, which isn't likely to happen.

However, you could at any time use a base iso and install refind instead of grub.

Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #2 –
Kind reminder to our users, a base installation is possible from within all our ISO images, should some people prefer the convenience of a graphical environment and the help of a web browser.

Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #3 –
Quote from: artoo – on
That's not easily possible, because calamares extracts a squash image.
This means, we would have to make refind default on efi iso, which isn't likely to happen.
Do you mean Artix offer init-freedom but not bootloader-freedom?

Is there also a licensing "problem" or just a matter of taste or habit?

Do you plan maybe another bootloader instead of (30 years old) Grub to accomplish easily specification of new file-systems like ZFS? E.g. `zfs-boot-menu` / `zbm` allowing select and booting of snapshots and encrypted disk/OS, even Linux-OS?

Remember, coming 'TrueNAS Scale' will be based on Debian but I bet, without grub needing additional boot-partition and not supporting zfs well nor offer booting snapshots. If finally TNS will use the original Debian or Devuan instead, is another story and maybe also out of topic.

What I kindly try to explain, is: The globe don't stop but continuing to rotate, you/we decide whether we turn or stay still.

Another topic you/we should consider...:
The minimum size of actual USB-stick is 8-16 GB, this capacity is wasted almost completely by a basic-ISO.
A bootloader (like rEFInd) could allow to store and start many ISO on the same USB-stick.
Moreover, after changing the disk-"geometry", e.g. after converting a disk to 4k, we can return to such bootloader and restart the ISO, or another one, without to boot the whole computer.

A vintage Grub doesn't allow anything and isn't anymore up to date for modern OS.

@nous
Do you discourage the use of Calamares?
Of course (apparently) everybody is able to make own Linux-OS (see youtube), me not.
If I see what Arco-Linux "developer" (Erik Dubois) has made out of Arch modifying Calamares, it's amazing, I can't.

The only question we should ask ourselves is: Is this the way we choose?

I'm not a coder or developer, so I can't answer to this, nor can I decide or force anything, I can just put some questions.

The question Artix developers should answer themselves is: How Artix want to be different from a Gento or Devuan?




Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #5 –
Quote from: tony26102 – on
Do you mean Artix offer init-freedom but not bootloader-freedom?
Artix officially supports only base installation. It's written on the download page. Nobody forces grub on users.

Quote from: tony26102 – on
The only question we should ask ourselves is: Is this the way we choose?
"We" sounds presumptious and overextending.

Quote from: tony26102 – on
The question Artix developers should answer themselves is: How Artix want to be different from a Gento or Devuan?
That's one additional question to the 'only question' above. The answer here is that Artix doesn't want to be either "different" or "better", to put it mildly. Someone else might have said "IDGAF".

Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #6 –
If you see table given on Arch wiki [ https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_boot_process#Boot_loader ], grub supports wide range of File systems along with many encryption options , while rEFInd skips some encryption checks. That is good reason to use grub as default bootloader.
If you still want to get rEFInd , you can remove grub and install it later after installation.
As nous mention base installation is good option to choose packages you want to choose for your system.

Artix devs have to other stuff about init services , I guess users respect their efforts and do a little things by themselves.
Create problems which don't have solution

Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #7 –
Quote from: strajder – on
"@tony26102", it is (should be?) a free world. If you don't like Artix, nobody is forcing you to use it. Just install whatever else you like in any way you like.
1. If all Linux-Distros use Grub or SytemD as default, there's no freedom. If people want have something different and must code it by themself, this's no freedom too, because only coder or experts can do it.
2. The question is not what I want and what I'm able to code or workaround in Artix or other Distro, the question is: "Do the developers know what their 'customers'/users want or prefer?" Do you ask them/we?
3. Do developer plan any changes for the future of Artix? If yes can we know your/their plan? Maybe you/we get more help or supporter or users or all together!?
4. Whatever I like?, for your statistic,: Artix, OpenRC, Plasma, with perfect implemented 4k-disk-block-size with a GUI bootloader capable of snapshots, encrypted disks and ZFS as simple as possible to install and use. The OS should be a working-tool and not a "life-purpose" task in coding, manipulating, workarounds, repairing non-booting Grub.

I'm not important! The Artix project too? Can I help you?

Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Arch_user – on
If you see table given on Arch wiki [ https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_boot_process#Boot_loader ], grub supports wide range of File systems along with many encryption options , while rEFInd skips some encryption checks. That is good reason to use grub as default bootloader.
That table clearly shows why GNU GRUB is the superior option when making a choice on a bootloader which supports the widest array of systems. One is also not forced to use it, it can be easily replaced by any other boot loader. I personally use Syslinux on real hardware, and have tried some other boot loaders like limine in QEMU. However, it is not something done from Calamares, as replacing a boot loader is an option for advanced users, who don't need a GUI installer anyway.

The recommended way to install Artix for advanced users is base ISO, and being advanced users, they should already know that. Calamares is for inexperienced users, who don't want to dabble too much in technical details. All the different "flavors" of ISOs are installing the same distribution, they just determine what will be installed initially. Desktop Environment and init system can be changed after installation.

I find it very strange that someone experienced enough to have an opinion on a boot manager doesn't know this already, and would still want to use a graphical installer.

For my personal use, I find GNU GRUB bloated (and rEFInd even more bloated - eye candy UI from Macintosh has no place in a boot loader, its purpose is to start the boot process and pass control to OS in the least intrusive manner possible). Since I also don't mind not having the support for full disk encryption on my system, I use Syslinux instead. Again, that is entirely possible to do, but requires a bit of knowing around the system. But that cannot be an option for the majority of users, who will have different opinions and hardware. GNU GRUB is a sane default.


Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Arch_user – on
If you see table given on Arch wiki [ https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_boot_process#Boot_loader ], grub supports wide range of File systems along with many encryption options , while rEFInd skips some encryption checks. That is good reason to use grub as default bootloader.
If you still want to get rEFInd , you can remove grub and install it later after installation.
As nous mention base installation is good option to choose packages you want to choose for your system.

Artix devs have to other stuff about init services , I guess users respect their efforts and do a little things by themselves.
1. I don't tell rEFInd should be mandatory, see zbm-link above.
2. Grub have still big problems, see here,  here and here, too complicated to manage, bloated up and older than the most users. I can still remember from end 2010 till 2014 all buntu-OS sporadically cannot start after kernel-upgrade and still cannot if on ZFS. Note: OpenZFS is now 10 years old.
3. The job done by Artix developers is out of discussion great. Newer packages, polished "Arch-based" and in my opinion better than Devuan and Gento of course.

I don't want blame anybody and for all not hardworking people on free of charges projects.

The question is also not which app is better or worse, because apparently each app have his own "bugs", the question is which app is the easiest to fix, the most flexible and which one is best supported by app-developer same.

Ones the experts, Artix developer take a well considered decision or choose a (for the future) good solution... we all should cooperate to realize it. See the linked threads/posts where Calamares try to implement ZFS (https://github.com/calamares/calamares/issues/533) where the most important statement is: "The developers should tell us what they definitely want or not" at least for the beginning, afterward, developers can decide to implement more options or feature.

You or developers should make a plan and take a clear decision with which one all other people can work on it.

By the way, disks-handling and bootloader are not simply omission of enabling and starting automatically a service in the init, that can be done after installing a service, this two things are crucial for any OS before install the same.

I know that already fixing all the things correlated to SystenD is an enormous (and maybe never-ending) work, but, this is the present, the daily work not the future.



Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #10 –
Quote from: strajder – on
That table clearly shows why GNU GRUB is the superior option when making a choice on a bootloader which supports the widest array of systems. One is also not forced to use it, it can be easily replaced by any other boot loader. I personally use Syslinux on real hardware, and have tried some other boot loaders like limine in QEMU. However, it is not something done from Calamares, as replacing a boot loader is an option for advanced users, who don't need a GUI installer anyway.
1. Table and real work: Only one saying "each cockroach is for his mother the most beautiful"
2. As you, in my posted links can read, Grub cannot be the best or perfect bootlaoder.
3. If Grub need an additional partition (also with ext2 FS) for booting a ZFS, cannot be replaced so easy like you write or not at all.
4. The bootloader should be able to boot/address 'Root=/dev/disk/by-id/' or better (if disk is encrypted) 'Root=PARTUUID' see links. If you accede the Grub-CLI you still get "(hda0,1)", which disk is meant is only possible if only one disk alone is present in the machine.
5. Until the bootloader-topic is not solved (no matter how them is called or how beautiful the cockroach is) no ZFS possible with Linux.

Quote from: strajder – on
I find it very strange that someone experienced enough to have an opinion on a boot manager doesn't know this already, and would still want to use a graphical installer.
1. I know my limits, you too?
2. I experienced crashs of Grub and rEFInd too, less with Artix (Grub), anyway I'm (frankly) afraid to replace Grub with rEFInd (even without ZFS) because of no clear instructions, not for non experts or no coder. E.g. set right path to icons-folder, not sure if PARTUUID is supported, a kind of 'Stanza' is done automatically with additional ISO-boot-entry (to be disabled) but discouraged to do own one, etc. etc..
3. The graphical installer overtake many special adjustments for specific init and DE that only the old-school-arch-user know including all new changes e.g. 'conman' strange that needed also by printers. Without GI I would need more than one day to install the OS, print all instruction on paper and insert each command by hand (at least I made it so by Arch).
Quote from: strajder – on
For my personal use, I find GNU GRUB bloated (and rEFInd even more bloated - eye candy UI from Macintosh has no place in a boot loader, its purpose is to start the boot process and pass control to OS in the least intrusive manner possible). Since I also don't mind not having the support for full disk encryption on my system, I use Syslinux instead. Again, that is entirely possible to do, but requires a bit of knowing around the system. But that cannot be an option for the majority of users, who will have different opinions and hardware. GNU GRUB is a sane default.
If you mean, and is also in reality like you mean, then, why not set syslinux as default bootloader? Why all bloated "crap" must be installed in every machine?

Again, it's not a question of your/my cockroach, the matter is... no bootloader is without any error or have such clear instruction to fix the things fast, all need to be usable in the future and they are not ready, someone (expert preferably) should validate which one made less work to be fixed, if Grub or rEFInd or zbm developers say he want to make and offer reliable changes/solution... the name is no matter. 

Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #12 –
Quote from: tony26102 – on
Do you mean Artix offer init-freedom but not bootloader-freedom?


What?
I told you already, calamares does not support choosing the bootloader if it extracts a squash image.
The squash image is premade, at iso build time.
Grub simply covers uefi and bios boot, hence we use it.

Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #13 –
Quote from: artoo – on
What?
I told you already, calamares does not support choosing the bootloader if it extracts a squash image.
The squash image is premade, at iso build time.
apparently only you and I understand that, those who should actually hear, they are (for various reasons) deaf and blind too.
Quote from: artoo – on
Grub simply covers uefi and bios boot, hence we use it.
apparently syslinux also covers BIOS and UEFI. The question of why it's not used is answered by yourself.
i know that is not addressed to me, the proof of this is in my links from github/calamares/zfs support.

The Calamares-developers can also implement a spaceship inside, but if OS-developers prefer an origami-aircraft inside their squash-image... you/we get the content of squash-image only.
this is also the repeated statement made in github/calamares/zfs support and Arco-Linux developer proof it too.



Re: GUI installer (Calamres): rEFInd

Reply #14 –
Well, why I pose this question here?

Because, after intense discussion on 'github/calamares/zfs support' we not only collect and document all the actual bugs inside different parts of OS (partitioner, formatter, bootloaders, efi-drivers, etc.) but also contact directly all developers.

All links i post in this thread and others threads in this forum plus the github-links contains error-reports, workarounds, recommendations (e.g. swap-size, disk-determination for bootloader, partitions-order, etc.) , etc..

I have also understanding for lack of human (and other) resources, willingness, cooperation and nobody wants to blame anybody for anything, absolute not.

Everyone knows now the small and big "problems", this was my intention and nothing else.

If and how to solve the issues is up to you all, i retire myself from this discussion.