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Topic: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe] (Read 14219 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #45 –
I asked Morganamilo, Developer of Paru, about this issue, and she said that every AUR Helper should be deferring to Pacman which will respect the Repo Order and that Pamac is weird and does weird things.

I have used paru for quite a while on Artix and I haven't had any issues at all, aside from a couple of broken links in PKGBUILDs which I had to fix manually and was the fault of the package maintainer, so I was surprised to hear that an AUR helper isn't following the computer's repo order.

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #46 –
I have installed octopi 0.12.0-2 from the universe.
I use octopi only to look for installed packages an updates, or news from Artix.
Updates, installation an uninstall I make only with pacman in the terminal.

Up to now I never had problems with octopi. Is the warning only for that case, to use octopi for make updates or installation?
Or ask in a other way. Ist ist dangerous, if I use octopi only for looking to news, updates and search for packages?


I also have installed some AUR. AUR I make with trizen. I never used pamac.

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 4800H
GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 Ti mobile
loaded: amdgpu,ati,modesetting,nouveau
Kernel: up to date
DM: Xfce

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #47 –
The highest risk of problems is indeed probably with pamac, but you need to be careful with all AUR helpers.
An always make sure to have a valid baclup before applying changes.

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #48 –
I'm a Linux user from the early days of Gentoo. My brain has been fried by the stress of Orwellian garbage, so I appreciate how well Artix "just works" and saves me so much trouble.

I don't understand why people want to complicate their lives with crutches. I've never met the GUI packamanager I didn't hate, and this goes back almost 25 years... I've seen it all. I hate it all. I can't figure out why anyone would want it.

It's nothing to do with usability. It's nothing to do with being a "new user." People are just brainwashed to think "the black screen where you type stuff" is scary. IT's not. It's your best friend. The sooner you get over that BS the better. You do not help newbies by continuing to insulate them from reality with flaky programs that cause more trouble than they are worth. Breaking a "newbie" of that fake mental block is more helpful than continuing to lie to them.

I use yay. I rarely use the AUR. Yeah, I have the Arch repos enabled, but I don't think I actually have anything from them installed right now. I've been with Artix for over a year, and through quite a bit of the growing pains. It's been handled as gracefully as I could expect for stuff I don't pay for... Even that is saying less than they deserve. Artix reminds me of the good ol' days. I digress... I use yay for it's quality of life features, not the AUR really. There is some HAM Radio stuff I'd like to play with which I doubt will ever be in the official repos, but that's all back-burner project stuff at the moment. I don't really use it anymore. Artix has grown up so much in the last 18 months, in the midst of some extreme turbulence the likes of which the world, let alone the nerd sector, has ever seen. It's been not just acceptable, but astonishingly smooth. I probably would have given up if it wasn't for Artix.

I appreciate that every flavor of init and gui is available out-of-the-box. I think thisis the eprfect model. Duh, it's why I'm here.

So I re-iterate the main topic... Why do you even want those disastrous GUI package managers? WHY? It's merely the brainwashed people who can't break the habit of pretty picture clicky clicky... It's like people who refuse to read a book that isn't written by Dr. Seuss... Step up! You're much more capable than you think you are. The console is actually EASIER. Once you use the console for more stuff you'll wish you broke yourself of the mind trap sooner.

Not because I'm some expert. I'm not. In spite of over 2 decades playing in Linux, my brain damage makes me quite terrible at all this... My experience only lends "been there, done that" to the conversation, not any expertise. I suck! I truly do! That's why I want the simplest most reliable option, and it sure as sh!t isn't a GUI package manager like pamac or octopi. If I had to use those things, I'd quit Linux. And I did. I used manjaro for about a week. I could not nope out of the mess fast enough. Holy crap, how does anyone use that thing?

I've tried it all. I've seen it all. My brain is fried. I can't deal with BS. I have no patience at all. I very much prefer pacman/yay by a wide margin, over anything I've ever seen or used in the past 20+ years. Also, The overall Artix philosophy. I'm grateful people took this monumental task upon themselves... I probably wouldn't have a computer anymore without it. Artix has been a lifeline for me. I'd be utterly screwed without it. "It just works." And it's absent all the corruption and mind-warping unrelated politics crap. It reminds me of 1998, ah, good times...

After all these years, I still don't even use vi. I don't have enough brains left. I use nano... I want you to understand my full perspective. I'm basically as obnoxious and impatient as a "noob." In many ways, I'm worse because I often know better but I just don't have enough brain left to do things right... I loathe graphical package mangers. I hate anything that tries to hide the nut and bolts behind a facade of BS. Anything like that is invariably far more complex and messy than just using the proper tools directly on console. Just do it!

I'm glad pamac and octopi are gone. They don't help noobs at all. Noobs think they need it because they're brainwashed. But, reality is that what they really need is to break free of the thought prison. Really, just use the console. It's way easier. I don't even use yay for the AUR helper features. Just the creature comforts, quality of life improvements. Even that is optional. Pacman is fine.

Universe repo, big good.

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #49 –
For me, octopi and pamac are more confusing than helpful.
I use pkgbrowser from AUR to quickly get information about packages. For operations on packages (installation, deletion, etc ..)   I use pacman in the terminal. I would be grateful if someone could be found to maintain the pkgbrowser and move it to the universe.

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #50 –
Just to clarify, what would people substitute with bloated GUI programs:

To find packages matching search_regexp
Code: [Select]
# To always show color:
# alias pacman='/usr/bin/pacman --color=always'
pacman -Ss search_regexp | less

To display information about some_package
Code: [Select]
pacman -Si some_package

To install package some_package
Code: [Select]
sudo pacman -S some_package

To remove package some_package
Code: [Select]
sudo pacman -R some_package

Over a few months using Artix, those commands become second nature.

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #52 –
Hi,

We, at the Linux User Group : Gebull, decided to install Artix Linux on the machines that pass by our hands to avoid SystemD and send a rolling-release distro in the wild, used by non-tech users (this kind of person that simply use a computer, for instance for state taxes and visio-conferences).

This users won't do crazy things with pamac, but they will click on the red shield to pass updates. The promess we made to them was that they would not be stranded by major updates anymore.

Suddently removing pamac from accessible repositories will fail every user we converted since merely 2 years.

PS our work on Artix : https://framagit.org/gebull/install (fr)

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #53 –
Quote from: Siltaar – on
This users won't do crazy things with pamac, but they will click on the red shield to pass updates. The promess we made to them was that they would not be stranded by major updates anymore.

Suddently removing pamac from accessible repositories will fail every user we converted since merely 2 years.
"Non-tech users" should either leave system administration to "tech users" or learn how to properly administer their systems. pamac does more harm than good, and by using it "non-tech users" would arrive at a point where they have a nonfunctional system which they don't know how to fix.

So, no.

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #54 –
Quote
pamac does more harm than good

What kind harm would be driven by Artix updates ?

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #56 –
I don't understand in which case Pamac will replace Artix packages by Arch ones.
Is it possible with regular Artix updates also ?

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #57 –
Quote from: Siltaar – on
I don't understand in which case Pamac will replace Artix packages by Arch ones.
Is it possible with regular Artix updates also ?
I am not familiar w/pamac so I don't know. I presume if your repositories are configured properly this shouldn't happen provided pamac abides by the repo order. Personally I use octopi with my Plasma installation quite a bit and have never had any serious issues of any kind in several years. Octopi will install through a terminal so you can verify the origins and nature of what will be installed. I don't think pamac has that option but as I said I am not familiar with its workings.

Best regards.
We should try to be kind to everyone.....we are all fighting some sort of battle.

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #58 –
Quote from: strajder – on
"Non-tech users" should either leave system administration to "tech users" or learn how to properly administer their systems.
People unwilling to learn basic adult responsibilities are a headache no matter where they go. Seems a lot of them want some weird Twitter bragging rites of "Ooo look at me I do a linuxez," but without actually learning anything or doing anything. A handout.

They want tech welfare handed to them and then claim accomplishment. These are the same people who can't drive standard, hire an electrician to change a light bulb, and have no idea what canning jars are for.

Grow up.

Be an adult.

Take care of your own stuff.

A childish, irresponsible Linux user is not a Linux user.

It's a poseur.

If they actually bothered to learn anything, they'd realize there's nothing to brag about. I've been doing this Linux bit for over 20 years, and I truly suck at it. I tell people I use Artix and OpenBSD not to brag, but to warn them and keep them from bothering me with their stupid Windows and iOS and "duhvice" garbage.

"Sorry, can't help you. I don't play with toys."

If I throw in a little snide arrogance, it's just additional deterrence. I'm bad at this and I know it. I have no bragging rites. I have not a leg to stand on with arrogance. I suck.

But, I try. I learn. I make the effort.

I'll gladly help someone who's serious, but how many people like that are there? "Muh Linux adoption" isn't a problem of outreach to lazy morons. It's that outreach doesn't work with lazy morons. It's a total waste of time, money and manpower. You're trying to slam a revolving door. You cannot taste the number purple. It doesn't even make sense.

I love that Artix doesn't waste time on a fool's errand.

People either want to take responsibility, or they don't. Most don't. No amount of "outreach" will change them into adults. They are perpetual children. Leave them be and spend you efforts on something that matters instead.

"You want to be lazy and mess things up even worse for no reason? Okay. Here. Bye." - Frustrated Universe Repo

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” - C.S. Lewis

That last sentence is the key.

We're all born ignorant infants. It's a matter of those who willfully choose to stay that way, and become useless domesticated pets, imbeciles, wards  of Big Brother... Or those who choose to embrace being a complete human being.

Sorry to get philosophical, but it's at the root of the problem. Look around at the condition of the world to see what happens when people like that take over... This matter is at the root of the problem, and no matter what is or isn't in the Universe repo; such severely defective people cannot be fixed, and accommodating them only leads to being tormented by them. Don't.

...putting the nVidia 470xx in Universe is backed by the same wisdom as the 390xx that's already there ... that's all I'm really trying to say...

Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]

Reply #59 –
Quote from: Siltaar – on
We, at the Linux User Group : Gebull, decided to install Artix Linux on the machines that pass by our hands to avoid SystemD and send a rolling-release distro in the wild, used by non-tech users (this kind of person that simply use a computer, for instance for state taxes and visio-conferences).
We do appreciate this move, but I can't help telling you that rolling-release distros (not just Artix) don't like the general, non-tech audience. They tend to break easier than cycle-release distros. Even a delayed mirror sync can make an important application to stop functioning due to a bumped shared library, until the mirror syncs and the system is updated again. Now, this can be avoided if the user is educated to either resist the urge to click the red button, or if that button isn't there in the first place.

Quote from: Siltaar – on
This users won't do crazy things with pamac, but they will click on the red shield to pass updates. The promess we made to them was that they would not be stranded by major updates anymore.
That promise is hard to keep. Even Arch and Manjaro, with all their manpower, eventually need manual intervention. Hell, even Microsoft has been botching windows updates for years.

Quote from: Siltaar – on
Suddently removing pamac from accessible repositories will fail every user we converted since merely 2 years.
Technically, pamac is still installed and working. If it stops working, all the better for the end-users: they won't be able to ruin their systems. @strajder is right about the harm pamac and octopi can do: if you break your system, you can't restore it with GUI pacman front-ends; you need to use the command line.
Anyway, you can very easily update pacman.conf of those PCs with the [universe] repository and things will resume as usual.

Quote from: Siltaar – on
PS our work on Artix : https://framagit.org/gebull/install (fr)
This is the first we hear about a bulk adoption of Artix and it's very encouraging. Merci!

May I suggest a couple of things, if you haven't yet implemented them: 1) have sshd listening on those PCs, preferably on non-standard ports, so you can fix problems without having to leave your house, and 2) instruct the users or even place a sticker on the monitor: "Do not update unless the administrator is present!"
Also, out of curiosity, which Artix ISO did you use?