General Category => Discussion about Artix => Topic started by: ObscureXwing on 23 June 2021, 14:35:59
Title: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: ObscureXwing on 23 June 2021, 14:35:59
Dear Artix Linux Developers, I have a couple of questions which are important to answer, so that we can understand each other correctly, because I do not want to cause problems to anyone, so if you have the time and desire to help me, please help me understand the following things:
1. What is the license of Artix Linux? I can't find any reference to it in gitea or on the website. I could make a logical assumption about the licenses of the components that Artix Linux uses, but I prefer to talk to a person and ask for an exact answer instead of guessing and making approximate conclusions. 2. If I want to make a distribution based on Artix Linux, can I do that? And if so, what license should I use? 3. If I have to attribute, which one and where?
Three simple questions. Also, to make it clear what I want to do I will explain my motivation. I met Artix Linux a year ago and I was really impressed by the way you guys treat your work! The problems users have been having on the forum are being fixed and more and more components are being added to Artix. I am an Artix user myself and use Runit and PipeWire, I really like its stability and security, but I feel that it requires a lot of experience and knowledge on the user side to install and use it, and that led me to the idea of creating a distribution for beginners that would be based on Artix and would have many useful applications! A driver installer, its own graphical installer (not based on Calamares, I wrote my own in Pascal and GTK2 using Lazarus and it already supports BTRFS), its own Wine wrapper which is in development, and much more for newbies! I want to make an easy to use and install distribution, free of systemd and pulseaudio, so that the user experience with Linux is pleasant, stable and safe from the start.
Thank you for your time and understanding, respectfully, Simon Bright (ObscureXwing)
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: alium on 23 June 2021, 15:05:30
Question: and wouldn't it be much more beneficial/useful if those dummy newbies learned how to linux works? don't just clicking? I understand that they want to show other guys at school how beautiful wallpaper they have. I understand that reading the instructions is difficult, in addition, sometimes one has to think about it ... but they still remain stupid and uneducated ... which is a pity :/
if somebody don't want to learn anything, he should stay with Windows or Ubuntu (there are many Linux distributions for newbies) . such a person does not need a systemd-free distribution. he doesn't appreciate it.
you didn't ask yourself the basic question: why did we build systemd-free archlinux and not e.g. systemd-free ubuntu? (here is systemd-free devuan) why did we choose the distribution for EXPERIENCED users? why intentionally don't we have any GUI (except installator)? https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_Linux#Principles (and you want kill it :D )
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: strajder on 23 June 2021, 15:39:46
The short answer: the specific license depends on the software package. Most of the GNU OS (often mistakenly called just "Linux") is licensed under the GNU GPL (https://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#GPL). Kernel, Linux, is mainly licensed under the v2 of GNU GPL, because its author, Linus Torvalds, wanted to allow tivoization (https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#Tivoization).
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: ObscureXwing on 23 June 2021, 15:49:57
Question: and wouldn't it be much more beneficial/useful if those dummy newbies learned how to linux works? don't just clicking? I understand that they want to show other guys at school how beautiful wallpaper they have. I understand that reading the instructions is difficult, in addition, sometimes one has to think about it ... but they still remain stupid and uneducated ... which is a pity :/
if somebody don't want to learn anything, he should stay with Windows or Ubuntu (there are many Linux distributions for newbies) . such a person does not need a systemd-free distribution. he doesn't appreciate it.
you didn't ask yourself the basic question: why did we build systemd-free archlinux and not e.g. systemd-free ubuntu? (here is systemd-free devuan) why did we choose the distribution for EXPERIENCED users? why intentionally don't we have any GUI (except installator)? https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_Linux#Principles (and you want kill it :D )
The world is mostly made up of people who are not interested in how computers work, which, in turn, is used for selfish purposes. This is used by websites to parasitize cookies, to mine cryptocurrencies using JavaScript, and is used by Microsoft to collect personal data from users. This has created a rotten market in which noteworthy operating systems based on the Linux kernel are in very little demand. For this reason, beautiful and user-friendly operating systems suffer from stability and performance problems (because the minds of their developers are busy with other things). So I want to make things better for Linux, because I believe that if we combine usability and beauty with good and sought-after components from well-known users, Linux will have a bright future and a large market share.
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: ObscureXwing on 23 June 2021, 15:53:51
The short answer: the specific license depends on the software package. Most of the GNU OS (often mistakenly called just "Linux") is licensed under the GNU GPL (https://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#GPL). Kernel, Linux, is mainly licensed under the v2 of GNU GPL, because its author, Linus Torvalds, wanted to allow tivoization (https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#Tivoization).
Thanks for your answer, it's close to what I was really expecting to hear, I know that the kernel and other components are distributed mostly under the GPL, but I need to know for sure if Artix Linux uses any special licensing so I don't violate any copyrights
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: alium on 23 June 2021, 15:59:40
The world is mostly made up of people who are not interested in how computers work
maybe world of Android, Windows, and iOs, not linux... if people who are not interested in how computers work, they interesting not about pseudo war "systemd vs. systemd-free". they can use some of existing linux distributions, or? we removed systemd, because WE KNOW why, and we just like it not. your users will soon complain, that your distro is not fully compatible with archlinux.... because systemd missing (some Arch packages still use can use only systemd, packages from AUR...wiki is full of systemd...ohh, your users want not read wiki....so no wiki), so for newbies you will switch to archlinux.... ups..here is manjaro for those 'users' ;D
This has created a rotten market in which noteworthy operating systems based on the Linux kernel are in very little demand.
little demand is because money ;) money of microsoft/google/apple/oracle (corporations) vs. money of free software
Quote
For this reason, beautiful and user-friendly operating systems suffer from stability and performance problems (because the minds of their developers are busy with other things).
for example which? I installed last month Ubuntu and OpenSuSe on laptops, both are very good distribution, beautiful and without performace problems...for example.
we can't forbid you fork us, but maintaining "distribution" (we can't talk about distribution, you'll probably just create your own ISO with some of your gtk2 tools) is very demanding for the whole team of peoples. But as one man show??? :o
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: lq on 23 June 2021, 16:07:38
The world is mostly made up of people who are not interested in how computers work ,,,
The world was created by thinking people for people to learn.
MfG
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: alium on 23 June 2021, 16:20:25
just for info, KDE update takes several hours, compilation of rust on a powerful machine 2.5 hours, chromium compilation up to 8 hours, rebuild python packages (every year new major version) takes 3 DAYS, and it's a little nightmare! I'm writing this just for info, let you know what to count on. But i don't think, that you want maintaining distribution...
my offer: you can easily create your repo with your tools for newbies, put a link here, we will be happy to put it on our wiki. and newbies who don't care how it works can be bombarded with questions about what and how all the time (not in our forum!!). That's a great post on how to help Linux, don't you think? You can patiently explain for hours where to click (without irony or ridicule) .
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: konimex on 23 June 2021, 16:25:27
Please note that this is my personal opinion and in no way represent Artix as a whole.
1. What is the license of Artix Linux? I can't find any reference to it in gitea or on the website. I could make a logical assumption about the licenses of the components that Artix Linux uses, but I prefer to talk to a person and ask for an exact answer instead of guessing and making approximate conclusions.
I think this is a difficult question to answer. Artix, like a lot of Linux distributions, is made up of a lot of software. And because Linux is GPL v2 or GCC is GPL v3 does that mean Artix as a whole is GPL? I don't think so. Since there are different components that make up Artix which are not GPL (e.g. OpenRC is BSD-2), and they are separate software. At the very least, all of our core packages should be using FSF/OSI-approved licenses.
See also: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#MereAggregation
However, we release all of our packages' build scripts, so if one wants to make their own distribution based on Artix or want to know how we build our packages, they can start from there. See: https://gitea.artixlinux.org/artixlinux
2. If I want to make a distribution based on Artix Linux, can I do that? And if so, what license should I use?
Since Artix itself is a distribution based on Arch Linux, I don't see why you can't do that. See above for "what license should I use?". The only catch would be please don't misrepresent the project as an Artix-endorsed project. If someone requests a support to Artix and the fault was from a modification by downstream, we won't be able to answer the problem since we can't reproduce the problem (just like the Arch team probably experienced support requests from people using Antergos/Endeavour, Manjaro, or even Artix, though I haven't heard about the last one).
little demand is because money ;) money of microsoft vs. money of free software
I'd argue that the term "market" is a slippery slope (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Market).
Rather, I'd say that many of the computer users mainly focus on consumerism, tightly related to proprietary OSes, so they tend to ignore GNU/Linux or develop misconceptions about it. Lately there have been attempts to "bridge the gap", personified in Canonical and RedHat, but I hope we all agree that's something harmful to Free software community.
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: ObscureXwing on 23 June 2021, 16:37:25
maybe world of Android, Windows, and iOs, not linux... if people who are not interested in how computers work, they interesting not about pseudo war "systemd vs. systemd-free". they can use some of existing linux distributions, or? we removed systemd, because WE KNOW why, and we just like it not. your users will soon complain, that your distro is not fully compatible with archlinux.... because systemd missing (some Arch packages still use can use only systemd, packages from AUR...wiki is full of systemd...ohh, your users want read wiki....so no wiki), so for newbies you will switch to archlinux.... ups..here is manjaro for those 'users' ;D
little demand is because money ;) money of microsoft vs. money of free software for example which? I installed last month Ubuntu and OpenSuSe on laptops, both are very good distribution, beautiful and without performace problems...for example.
we can't forbid you fork us, but maintaining "distribution" (we can't talk about distribution, you'll probably just create your own ISO with some of your gtk2 tools) is very demanding for the whole team of peoples. But as one man show??? :o
You shouldn't be so toxic. If people have problems - I am interested in helping them, I know that I am not a superman and do not have the opportunity to do something perfect, but I know that I have enough persistence to make this world a little bit better, over time I will have my own repositories if you "care" so much, and will have my own wiki. Also, I am absolutely not interested in "wars", I chose Runit as the init system not because systemd is "so bad". I chose it for security reasons.
And I know perfectly well that not all packages are currently supported from the AUR, but I can easily build a great many packages without any errors, you say as if 90% of packages depend on systemd, but this is not so
Besides, as far as I know, sometimes this problem can be solved by replacing systemd with elogind in the dependencies before compilation, of course this solution will not always help, however, I do all my usual things on Artix and put my friends on it, and they also have no problems
And you say that Ubuntu has no problems, but there are a lot of them, the GNOME desktop environment is used, which became heavy after the third version, snap packages that have telemetry and a bunch of vulnerabilities, which are sometimes very noticeably eliminated after the upstream. ubuntu has stability problems because the package base is based on Debian Unstable, of course there were intermediate releases, but bugs still remain. A friend of mine recently was unable to install Manjaro next to Windows 7 (there was a bug in the installer), which indicates problems with the installer, so I'm trying to take all aspects together and make the system better out of the box. For this and many other reasons, I chose Mate as the desktop environment, I chose Runit as the initialization system, I chose PipeWire as the sound server, and wrote my own installer and other programs.
If you consider my desire to use Artix Linux as the basis for my own distribution as a manifestation of disrespect, then you should not think so. Because the desire to create my own distribution kit based on Artix arose only because of my respect for the Artix Linux developers and the desire to improve the position of Linux on the market. Why do you perceive the desire to make the world a better place in this way as necessarily bad? You seem to have been bitten by infectious zombies, and now you bite back, thinking that this is necessarily bad.
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: alium on 23 June 2021, 16:44:19
toxic...poison... zombies... new marxist newspeak?
i am very sorry, i just worte what i think... i did it before, i will do it in future. If you like it not, your problem 8) your idea is for ,me as part of artix team just wrong, you must not crying because i wrote it
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: artoo on 23 June 2021, 16:49:48
I wish good luck positioning yourself in"the market". As for artix linux, and speaking for myself, there is no thought or intention wasted on markets. We provide a linux distro, pacman based without systemd, which has been the initial goal and mission, and was strictly speaking for private use originally. Now artix has grown, which has been a fun ride.
Is your fork whatever you intend a commercial attempt? If that is the case, cooperation would be very limited, I am afraid.
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: ObscureXwing on 23 June 2021, 16:57:34
Please note that this is my personal opinion and in no way represent Artix as a whole. I think this is a difficult question to answer. Artix, like a lot of Linux distributions, is made up of a lot of software. And because Linux is GPL v2 or GCC is GPL v3 does that mean Artix as a whole is GPL? I don't think so. Since there are different components that make up Artix which are not GPL (e.g. OpenRC is BSD-2), and they are separate software. At the very least, all of our core packages should be using FSF/OSI-approved licenses.
See also: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#MereAggregation
However, we release all of our packages' build scripts, so if one wants to make their own distribution based on Artix or want to know how we build our packages, they can start from there. See: https://gitea.artixlinux.org/artixlinux Since Artix itself is a distribution based on Arch Linux, I don't see why you can't do that. See above for "what license should I use?". The only catch would be please don't misrepresent the project as an Artix-endorsed project. If someone requests a support to Artix and the fault was from a modification by downstream, we won't be able to answer the problem since we can't reproduce the problem (just like the Arch team probably experienced support requests from people using Antergos/Endeavour, Manjaro, or even Artix, though I haven't heard about the last one). Like on our mainsite, you can just say, "<name> Linux, Artix-based distribution". Just don't misrepresent your project as an Artix-endorsed project.
Good luck!
Ok, I think I understand, I cannot specify any specific license, because it depends on the components, thanks for the explanation
And of course I understand your position, because if the distribution contains software developed / compiled not by your guys, then I, as the developer of this software, bear responsibility for this! It's easy enough to understand, don't worry about it, I won't give you problems, and of course, I will definitely point out that my distribution is based on Artix, I show you respect and there is no reason for me to somehow distort the views of users !
Thanks for your time and answering my questions! have a nice day !
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: ObscureXwing on 23 June 2021, 17:05:33
I wish good luck positioning yourself in"the market". As for artix linux, and speaking for myself, there is no thought or intention wasted on markets. We provide a linux distro, pacman based without systemd, which has been the initial goal and mission, and was strictly speaking for private use originally. Now artix has grown, which has been a fun ride.
Is your fork whatever you intend a commercial attempt? If that is the case, cooperation would be very limited, I am afraid.
The project will be free, just like Artix, I will not charge users for downloading or using my software, my programs will also be available on GitHub as opensource software. And I'm not going to "position" myself or the distribution on the market in the light in which you might imagine it, I will not try to squeeze into the standards, with time you will understand what I mean
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: artoo on 23 June 2021, 17:14:20
For curiosity, why is the need to fork? I mean, feel free, but what is the mission of your fork?
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: ObscureXwing on 23 June 2021, 17:31:06
For curiosity, why is the need to fork? I mean, feel free, but what is the mission of your fork?
I don’t know yet if I need a whole fork of Artix, perhaps in the future this may happen, but so far the task is quite simple, and the task is as follows - create an easy-to-use distribution that people migrating from microsoft windows to Linux can use, with a smooth learning curve, so that people can learn to work with Linux in the process, but use the system and its capabilities - now ! In general, it will be a user-friendly distribution, but at the same time, without programs that could violate the user's privacy, ungoogled-chromium will be provided by default out of the box, and stuff like that ! Plus there has been a pretty big trend towards Linux lately among gamers, but due to performance issues, they get frustrated and come back to Windows thinking that there is no other way out, I also want to influence this by providing users with simple tools and patched kernels to improve their gaming performance out of the box.
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: strajder on 23 June 2021, 19:46:45
create an easy-to-use distribution that people migrating from microsoft windows to Linux can use, with a smooth learning curve,
"Ease of use" is a relative term. To some, point-and-click GUI seems "easy", but when unplanned things happen they find themselves stumped on what to do. This is true on Windows as well.
Quote
so that people can learn to work with Linux in the process, but use the system and its capabilities - now !
GNU/Linux is best learned by using it, overcoming potential problems as you go. Reading a well written book on it usage also helps, as well as reading documentation. Perhaps the best tools for a beginner are: text editor, less(1) and man(1)!
I don't know if you are familiar with Luke Smith, but he covered the topic of learning how to use GNU/Linux in several of his videos on Youtube. He mentions that usually newcomers to GNU/Linux are advised to try programs "familiar from Windows", and even to use Wine to run Windows applications. The problem is that Steam, Wine, etc are an advanced topic in GNU/Linux, and not something native to GNU/Linux or, more generally, Unix environment, so they inevitably run into problems, lose interest and go back to Windows. The correct way would be "when in Rome..."
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: ObscureXwing on 23 June 2021, 22:37:03
"Ease of use" is a relative term. To some, point-and-click GUI seems "easy", but when unplanned things happen they find themselves stumped on what to do. This is true on Windows as well. GNU/Linux is best learned by using it, overcoming potential problems as you go. Reading a well written book on it usage also helps, as well as reading documentation. Perhaps the best tools for a beginner are: text editor, less(1) and man(1)!
I don't know if you are familiar with Luke Smith, but he covered the topic of learning how to use GNU/Linux in several of his videos on Youtube. He mentions that usually newcomers to GNU/Linux are advised to try programs "familiar from Windows", and even to use Wine to run Windows applications. The problem is that Steam, Wine, etc are an advanced topic in GNU/Linux, and not something native to GNU/Linux or, more generally, Unix environment, so they inevitably run into problems, lose interest and go back to Windows. The correct way would be "when in Rome..."
Convenience is a relative concept, I completely agree with you, a value judgment regarding something is, in principle, so popular, because everything is learned in comparison. For the same reason, Windows users do not find GNU/Linux convenient, because their usual "convenience" obtained by past experience does not correlate with the new "convenience" obtained when using GNU/Linux, someone adapts, someone does not, I want simplify this process by making the transition smoother so that more people can learn to use Linux
And what about steam, wine, and so on, I can say that technologies are developing very quickly, and today you can achieve amazing results on Linux-based operating systems, but for this you need "many stars to converge in the sky" This process needs to be simplified, it will not be difficult for an experienced user to find out in which version of Wine the application he needs will run, but not everyone knows, for example, how to provide asynchronous compilation of shaders with a specific number of threads to improve the performance of the application being launched. I think, this world needs my programs and Linux, in which such modern technologies will work out of the box at the push of a button.
Title: Re: A question to the Artix development team
Post by: ####### on 24 June 2021, 03:25:53
This is kind of Artix based: https://sourceforge.net/projects/alfheim-linux/ (https://sourceforge.net/projects/alfheim-linux/) There was also an ArtixBang from the ArchBang team for a while, doesn't seem to be about now though. You'd probably attract more Windows noobs with full Chrome than ungoogled Chromium I would guess ;D Noob friendly is often as much about help and support as the software itself I think. It could take years to gain a user base, there's a lot of distro's about.