Artix Linux => Announcements => Topic started by: Artist on 20 October 2021, 18:07:06
Title: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: Artist on 20 October 2021, 18:07:06
Due to major issues occurring for users as a result of using some AUR helpers, it has been decided to remove Pamac and Octopi from our repositories. We know some users liked using these tools, but unfortunately the havoc they keep creating outweighs their benefits. artist
Update 25-Oct-2021 18:40 (CET) : To accommodate for the wishes of the users who expressed their preference to have paman and octopi provide by Artix, these have now been added to the - not officially supported - universe repository. A clear warning and disclaimer are displayed when installing or upgrading these packages:
>>> THIS TOOL IS NOT SUPPORTED BY ARTIX (NOR BY ARCH) THE USE OF AUR HELPERS CAN RESULT IN A BROKEN SYSTEM MAKE SURE TO HAVE A VALID BACKUP FIRST AND USE AT YOUR OWN RISK
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: calvinh on 20 October 2021, 18:31:19
pamac was the problem. Not sure about octopi. It has "auto suggestion" built in as well?
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: nous on 21 October 2021, 10:22:55
Due to major issues occurring for users as a result of using some AUR helpers, it has been decided to remove Pamac and Octopi from our repositories. We know some users liked using these tools, but unfortunaly the havoc they keep creating outweighs their benefits. artist
Oh noes, imagine the negative reviews: "It's 2021 and Artix doesn't provide a GUI package manager... die die die!"
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: nous on 21 October 2021, 10:43:58
Beginning with next weeks builds, only the community editions will offer GUI package managers.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: ####### on 21 October 2021, 21:59:31
Looks like both octopi and pamac are available in pre-built binary form from the chaotic aur repo, which I've heard is a fairly reliable source of packages (although I haven't personally tried it nor do I use either of these package managers as a disclaimer to this statement) https://aur.chaotic.cx/ (https://aur.chaotic.cx/) So that could be a possible alternative for those affected by this, you'd need to enable that non-standard repo.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: strajder on 21 October 2021, 22:40:23
Looks like both octopi and pamac are available in pre-built binary form from the chaotic aur repo, which I've heard is a fairly reliable source of packages (although I haven't personally tried it nor do I use either of these package managers as a disclaimer to this statement) https://aur.chaotic.cx/ (https://aur.chaotic.cx/) So that could be a possible alternative for those affected by this, you'd need to enable that non-standard repo.
See here: https://github.com/Jguer/yay/issues/880
That POC shows why having an AUR helper call a text editor on a PKGBUILD, and having a human carefully inspect said PKGBUILD, is essential for security. Also that's why one cannot trust packages from AUR, no matter what any youtuber claims.
Edit: Malware in AUR: https://thehackernews.com/2018/07/arch-linux-aur-malware.html
Warning: AUR packages are user-produced content. These PKGBUILDs are completely unofficial and have not been thoroughly vetted. Any use of the provided files is at your own risk.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: ####### on 22 October 2021, 03:52:01
The PKGBUILD inspection option is all very well, but can't a pamac user go to the aur website and look at the PKGBUILD and package source there? And even if they did, how is a noob - or even an experienced user - supposed to spot this malware anyway? Plus there is a case of what is a reasonable precaution, ie if malware appears in the AUR then someone is going to complain and take it down, but that is always going to take a time to happen - and you can equally be at risk from malware in all other kinds of situations. You link to github and there's malware hosted on there too, but you don't need to avoid the entire website. What I've been thinking for a while now, (but will probably spend a lot more time thinking about it) is using antivirus software to scan the PKGBUILD, source and finished build results, because expecting a human to do all that every time they update is a pretty pathetic security procedure in practice unless they are a cyborg or something. pamac did break for a long while after the pacman update, because it's a Manjaro project and primarily maintained to keep pace with Manjaro versions, which are well behind Artix and Arch, so it's not always the most reliable option though, octopi was fixed faster. So far as the decision to remove these from the Artix repos go, I totally respect whatever decision the maintainers make, I was merely suggesting a workaround, and I hope anyone who looked into that takes your points on board too.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: strajder on 22 October 2021, 07:31:47
And even if they did, how is a noob - or even an experienced user - supposed to spot this malware anyway?
That is exactly the point. Experienced users will be able to spot if anything is wrong with the package, provided they carefully inspect it. Newbies won't. There is also the matter of someone making an unintentional mistake in the PKGBUILD, and damaging the user's system. Curating takes resources: manpower and time, and it is next to impossible to do on an ever-changing system such as AUR.
AUR helpers are programs to whom the user gives complete control over its system, and they are given instructions by a random person on the Internet. It should be easy to see how that can go very wrong very fast.
Artix additionally breaks away with systemd, which is assumed on Arch, so even seemingly well-behaved packages in AUR can create potentially unexpected problems.
The PKGBUILD inspection option is all very well, but can't a pamac user go to the aur website and look at the PKGBUILD and package source there? And even if they did, how is a noob - or even an experienced user - supposed to spot this malware anyway? Plus there is a case of what is a reasonable precaution, ie if malware appears in the AUR then someone is going to complain and take it down, but that is always going to take a time to happen - and you can equally be at risk from malware in all other kinds of situations. You link to github and there's malware hosted on there too, but you don't need to avoid the entire website. What I've been thinking for a while now, (but will probably spend a lot more time thinking about it) is using antivirus software to scan the PKGBUILD, source and finished build results, because expecting a human to do all that every time they update is a pretty pathetic security procedure in practice unless they are a cyborg or something. pamac did break for a long while after the pacman update, because it's a Manjaro project and primarily maintained to keep pace with Manjaro versions, which are well behind Artix and Arch, so it's not always the most reliable option though, octopi was fixed faster. So far as the decision to remove these from the Artix repos go, I totally respect whatever decision the maintainers make, I was merely suggesting a workaround, and I hope anyone who looked into that takes your points on board too.
I tend to agree with this and, while not wishing to water down the warnings given in other posts above, I feel as long as the user is armed with the necessary warnings, it is his or her ultimate decision to use or not use the AUR.
I have used it in the past and am fully aware of the risks, and certainly would not blame Artix if I broke my system!
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: mandog on 22 October 2021, 22:29:24
Pamac is a bad choice by any means it does not follow Arch it just a hotch potch program by Manjaro and fails on their own system let alone Artix or any Arch based system ;)
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: katinka on 23 October 2021, 11:17:47
Many users use the AUR like they are used to from Windows. I need software X, so I download it from somewhere without questioning what it might contain. It's all nicely automated, requires no independent thinking, no work, click, click, click and done.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: limotux on 23 October 2021, 14:54:41
I tend to agree with this and, while not wishing to water down the warnings given in other posts above, I feel as long as the user is armed with the necessary warnings, it is his or her ultimate decision to use or not use the AUR.
I have used it in the past and am fully aware of the risks, and certainly would not blame Artix if I broke my system!
I agree with you. PLUS some packages are available only on AUR. I'm not sure exactly what but I think for example Google Chrome. And still, with or without pamac, users can install from AUR. So, the only difference is command line vs GUI. Linux is all about freedom and choice. So, why limit user?!
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: strajder on 23 October 2021, 15:35:05
Linux is all about freedom and choice. So, why limit user?!
pamac will do things like replace Artix packages with Arch packages, remove packages you didn't tell it to, etc. When that happens, you are on your own, don't expect help.
pamac will do things like replace Artix packages with Arch packages, remove packages you didn't tell it to, etc. When that happens, you are on your own, don't expect help.
OOOPS! I never thought of this. But does this mean that using AUR with command line is OK? Mainly for things like Dropbos, google chrome,... etc.... not just any not well known packgae?
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: lq on 23 October 2021, 17:38:32
OOOPS! I never thought of this. But does this mean that using AUR command line is OK?
When the belief ends and no knowledge is available, one often sits in front of a black screen. In German, this means: learning through pain.
There is no AUR command line, because Aur is not a repository but only a folder with cooking recipes. If you want to learn more: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_User_Repository
MfG
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: fromzero on 23 October 2021, 17:41:35
I like Artix and i started my Arch journey with Artix. To be honest i used pamac almost from beginning but after seeing that i cant install pamac on my new system i thought there is a problem with mirrorlist or repo, at least that announcement made it clear for me thanks. I knew pamac could have issues and i think avoiding pamac makes sense to me if it has security problems and system stability issues. But in open-source freedom mind, i believe there also should be alternatives for choices (GUI CLI dilemma). By the way i am using yay right now and it works okay i cant complain. Can our community make a suggestion about AUR helpers(easy and minimal) ? that can be useful for non-expert users like me.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: strajder on 23 October 2021, 17:57:04
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AUR_helpers
Quote
Warning: AUR helpers are not supported by Arch Linux. You should become familiar with the manual build process in order to be prepared to troubleshoot problems.
They are also not supported by Artix. In addition to Arch, Artix doesn't use systemd, so that is an additional reason not to support AUR and AUR helpers.
Manual build process (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_User_Repository#Installing_and_upgrading_packages)
Again, everyone is free to install whatever he wants, but without official support.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: limotux on 23 October 2021, 18:16:47
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AUR_helpersThey are also not supported by Artix. In addition to Arch, Artix doesn't use systemd, so that is an additional reason not to support AUR and AUR helpers.
Manual build process (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_User_Repository#Installing_and_upgrading_packages)
Again, everyone is free to install whatever he wants, but without official support.
To summarize it, AUR should be excluded from repos? What about google chrome and others? How can Artix/Arch user get them? Would it be possible somehow to put such apps in the main repositories by Artix developers (recompiled from .deb?) I believe I read something about possibility to recompile/install from .deb. Would that be OK? What about using debtap https://github.com/helixarch/debtap ?
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: strajder on 23 October 2021, 18:37:51
To summarize it, AUR should be excluded from repos?
AUR was never a part of Arch official repositories (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Official_repositories), nor Artix repositories (https://wiki.artixlinux.org/Main/Repositories).
What about google chrome and others? How can Artix/Arch user get them?
Google Chrome is only available from AUR. Artix has Ungoogled Chromium in the universe repository, which is a version of Google Chrome without Google's privacy invading "features".
AUR was never a part of Arch official repositories (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Official_repositories), nor Artix repositories (https://wiki.artixlinux.org/Main/Repositories).Google Chrome is only available from AUR. Artix has Ungoogled Chromium in the universe repository, which is a version of Google Chrome without Google's privacy invading "features".See my previous message.
Sure. Much clearer now for me. thank you.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac removed from repositories
Post by: nous on 25 October 2021, 11:33:57
Both pamac and octopi will be available from [universe] (https://wiki.artixlinux.org/Main/Repositories#Universe), which is maintained by Artix devs but not official: "not official" means unsupported, in case this isn't clear.
Both pamac and octopi will be available from [universe] (https://wiki.artixlinux.org/Main/Repositories#Universe), which is maintained by Artix devs but not official: "not official" means unsupported, in case this isn't clear.
I'd like to remove them completely from all Artix repos. They're in AUR anyway. If someone can not live w/o them, they have to learn how to use AUR.
Agree at 100 %! AUR is not so big problem! And all of this is a good signal to coders to make alternate GUI/frontend for pacman.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: Artist on 25 October 2021, 18:40:36
Update 25-Oct-2021 18:40 (CET) : To accommodate for the wishes of the users who expressed their preference to have paman and octopi provided by Artix, these have now been added to the - not officially supported - universe repository. A clear warning and disclaimer are displayed when installing or upgrading these packages:
>>> THIS TOOL IS NOT SUPPORTED BY ARTIX (NOR BY ARCH) THE USE OF AUR HELPERS CAN RESULT IN A BROKEN SYSTEM MAKE SURE TO HAVE A VALID BACKUP FIRST AND USE AT YOUR OWN RISK
artist
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: ivan_XI on 28 October 2021, 20:41:23
since i am new here, i want to say i do like your decision and follow the true UNIX philosophy, not linux adopted one made years during systemd mess then wayland came along made it worst for linux...i really do finally appreciated someone have same idea as mine that we share common interest..start making linux from scratch by removing systemd and used S6-init base, soon i am really looking forward in your project quest to make the best OS...not just ordinary distro like rest same community...NO, THE BEST LINUX OS ENTIRELY JUST LIKE FREEBSD DID ..by forking entire linux community and start from there ...just the way GNU starting making their owned kernel ...so why not we can make next gen project on experimenting on linus source code of his kernel and forked it to make our owned kernel with our tools in that way..since your team got rid the bloat of sysd...now i have confident we can do it with entire linux kernel bloat it has become now..it be separated project for spare time while this team continue improving this linux distro of becoming one day becoming complete os and different than entire distros apart ...that be more fun now, and i don't give a what linux creator says now..he too busy giving lectures about his success when your starting your owned now with new path
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: calvinh on 28 October 2021, 20:59:59
since i am new here, i want to say i do like your decision and follow the true UNIX philosophy, not linux adopted one made years during systemd mess then wayland came along made it worst for linux...i really do finally appreciated someone have same idea as mine that we share common interest..start making linux from scratch by removing systemd and used S6-init base, soon i am really looking forward in your project quest to make the best OS...not just ordinary distro like rest same community...NO, THE BEST LINUX OS ENTIRELY JUST LIKE FREEBSD DID ..by forking entire linux community and start from there ...just the way GNU starting making their owned kernel ...so why not we can make next gen project on experimenting on linus source code of his kernel and forked it to make our owned kernel with our tools in that way..since your team got rid the bloat of sysd...now i have confident we can do it with entire linux kernel bloat it has become now..it be separated project for spare time while this team continue improving this linux distro of becoming one day becoming complete os and different than entire distros apart ...that be more fun now, and i don't give a what linux creator says now..he too busy giving lectures about his success when your starting your owned now with new path
It'd be very difficult to completely replace the Linux kernel, or even clean it up. However, I would love to see Artix to replace the bloated glibc with musl libc next.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: ivan_XI on 28 October 2021, 21:21:10
what ever it takes since we have entire arch repository in our disposal by converting each one into musl...it may takes days or months, i am looking forward with this discussions with developers here every step they take to steer the ship on right course..my example i even make my new desktop look on my artix s6 version and working fantastic now, my printer works and my cam works too...even steam even lutrix working well ..(https://twitter.com/IKintobor/status/1453803480112640001/photo/1)
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: xanadu on 29 October 2021, 09:36:34
Actually it's AUR that makes Arch great – AUR is one of the main reasons why I am using Artix. It offers me virtually all Linux software that is available, even closed source with problematic licences.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: icstars on 30 October 2021, 16:48:23
this is a very interesting discussion and in weighing both sides, i'm not convinced that dissuading users from using the AUR and not providing a graphical package manager is the way to go
regarding a graphical package manager, all of the graphical and community ISOs provide a preconfigured DE which, to me, implies that a large portion of that audience is newblets (like myself) and not having a proper, stable pointy-clicky package manager is an immediate turn-off for several reasons
i depend on a graphical package manager to ...
* ease installs * quickly find the web address of the repo * get a description of the software * compare a package to other packages * check the build date * list dependencies * list included files * ability to query multiple repos
...all in a unified interface
nous made the statement "...imagine the negative reviews: "It's 2021 and Artix doesn't provide a GUI package manager... die die die!""
yes, it is 2021, and in my opinion users, especially those new to a Linux OS, should not have to resort to a terminal to browse, compare, get descriptions about and install software
pamac is junk, agreed, but something is needed imo
regarding the AUR, sure there's malware that creeps in once in a while (kind of like the kernel (DRM) and systemd, eh?), but does that happen often enough to discourage its use entirely and, in the process, cut newbies off from a plethora of useful software? of course if the same/similar package is available in the official repo, the user should always be prompted (thinking here of Google's Chrome malware)
a suggestion was made about scanning the build files with a virus scanner and while i don't think that's a bad idea, i wonder if it could be made even simpler ...
i would guess that virtually no one actually audits the code before installing something from the AUR, especially those, like myself, who a) have better things to do and b) don't know the language(s) it's written in
i don't know how malware in the AUR commonly manifests, but if for example it manifests in build scripts which then download crap from a 3rd party, then the user could be presented with a dialog along the lines of "x package wants to communicate with http:///whatever.com during the installation - do you want to allow this?" - kind of like the permissions system that Mozilla implemented for Firefox add-ons
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: artoo on 30 October 2021, 21:47:23
* ease installs * quickly find the web address of the repo * get a description of the software * compare a package to other packages * check the build date * list dependencies * list included files * ability to query multiple repos
Just a question, how is that more effective or faster than
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: icstars on 30 October 2021, 23:54:08
well, one would have to know the name of the package and the repo it's in
and what if one just wanted to browse packages just to see what's available / what's new
or see a screencap or know whether it's a GUI or terminal program or know whether it's already installed or ...
i suspect those that don't use graphical package managers are already comfortable in the terminal and already know exactly what they want, and that's fine, but those new to Linux OSs are unlikely to know the package names much less what repo to look in
pretty sure essentially no one uses the terminal to browse the www any more and browsing packages isn't all that dissimilar - there is more information available in the repos than what can be displayed in a terminal, so far as i know, plus it's organized and displayed in a far more pleasing way in a GUI
i think in the end the question isn't why, it's why not (include a GUI pkg manger)? or at least something like Discover (KDE) where one can read reviews and get information like screen caps, etc.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: strajder on 31 October 2021, 00:17:41
i suspect those that don't use graphical package managers are already comfortable in the terminal and already know exactly what they want, and that's fine, but those new to Linux OSs are unlikely to know the package names much less what repo to look in
pacman -Ss browser | less pacman -Ss audio | less pacman -Ss player | less pacman -Ss solitaire | less
No need to know package names.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Pacman
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: icstars on 31 October 2021, 00:39:53
i know that, but that doesn't address all the points in my argument for a GUI pkg manager or cater to those who don't want to have to remember terminal commands - and again, one cannot get all of the available info with pacman as you can with Pamac and Discover for example
if Artix is wanting to target people who are new, or fairly new to Linux OSs, not having a graphical package manager is going to be a turn-off for many and the fact that it's a turn of for me and others who have commented in this thread (and elsewhere (https://forum.artixlinux.org/index.php/topic,3221.0.html)) is evidence of that - it's simple; not everyone wants to use the terminal to display limited information that can be displayed in a far more organized and intuitive way with a GUI
you guys are the devs so it's obviously your choice, but it's a logical fact that some/many people are going to want/expect to be able to browse and install packages in a way that makes sense to them
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: picokan on 31 October 2021, 10:30:32
If you must, you can use kde's discover. It's in the official repos, it's officially supported by arch and artix, but doesn't have AUR support (wouldn't be official if it did).
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: artoo on 31 October 2021, 10:35:20
if Artix is wanting to target people who are new, or fairly new to Linux OSs,
I thought it was clear to artix users that we don't target these. Maybe it wasn't communicated enough, but from the entire concept of artix, it should be clear it requires some experience with eg archlinux. For GUI stuff, there is manjaro and other distros that do target these users.
and again, one cannot get all of the available info with pacman as you can with Pamac and Discover for example
I would question this claim, under the hood, these gui tools call pacman or alpm api. It is more likely, you lack the commands to achieve what the gui does for you under the hood.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Pacman
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: nous on 31 October 2021, 14:18:02
I really don't understand all this fuss, we still provide the GUI package managers, just not in the official repos, but still a lot more trustworthy than a random 3rd party repo listed in the Arch wiki...
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: onekk on 01 November 2021, 11:53:21
I've followed the entire conversation, and I have some doubt about the mission of Artix.
Stated that generally speaking, a distribution should have the goal to spred his use, not easying things for newbies is a clear "stay away" sign.
This consideration will make me think about future of Artix.
Artix Users, (for now I'm thinking I'm yet an Artix User) are searching for a "reliable" alternative to systemd Arch Linux, but having a "decent" user base will be a thing that is not "a bad thing", as more users usually means more people that "spread the voice". and make a distribution more "widely used".
Not using the GUI is not a problem, provided that there are a "decent" documentation, and this is only partially true with Artix.
As the differences between Arch and Artix are becoming bigger, shen I search for documentatio to solve a problem, like some fonts or other things i will find many references to systemd as it is invading "other linuxes" and Arch is among them.
What are the efforts to have a better documentation for Artix?
Many things could be simply made available to beginners, like some "pacman hints" or a sorto fo beginner guide, maybe covering some "topics" like fonts and other things, maybe some widespread problems, like "browsers settings" and so on that are becoming very subtle to manage, (I'm strugglig to have a decent visualization with FireFox, probabluy due to some fonts problems).
Only some things to discuss on, probably my post is in the wrong place, and my thinkings are not very clearly explained, and almost surely wrongs, but....
Regards
Carlo D.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: ####### on 01 November 2021, 14:24:13
Artix is Arch without systemd, that was the original name of the project. See the description of Arch Linux on Wikipedia: "The project attempts to have minimal distribution-specific changes, and therefore minimal breakage with updates, and be pragmatic over ideological design choices and focus on customizability rather than user-friendliness." "This has earned it a reputation as a distribution for "advanced users" who are willing to use the command line." "Arch Linux does not schedule releases for specific dates but uses a "rolling release" system where new packages are provided throughout the day. Its package management allows users to easily keep systems updated. Occasionally, manual interventions are required for certain updates, with instructions posted on the news section of the Arch Linux website."
If someone can't install pamac from an alternate repo they will soon come up against some update issue they cannot fix either, the system will cease to function, therefore there is no point in using Artix in the first place, it is unsuitable for them in general. Sure new users will get some help but ultimately they need the enthusiasm and willingness to learn to carry on and run with the ball of their own accord. And whether it's 100 users paying nothing to use Artix or 100,000,000 paying nothing that still adds up to nothing. ;D
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: calvinh on 01 November 2021, 14:56:59
Users who are new to Arch or new to Linux in general are recommended to use some "more new user friendly" distros, for example Linux Mint. Blindly jumping on Artix/Arch wagon will only frustrate everyone, including the user himself/herself.
How did Artix attract so many first-time Arch/Linux users remains a myth to me.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: SGOrava on 01 November 2021, 16:43:23
How did Artix attract so many first-time Arch/Linux users remains a myth to me.
- Artix provides graphical installer with many premade bootable images with different desktops. - Artix just works.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: ivan_XI on 01 November 2021, 17:30:45
artix can make their own gui package manager like octopi and call it artpac, they don't need octopi that much, its easy to make octopi from aur with easy commands terminology i am used to anyway with making custom kernels and enlightenment environment
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: SGOrava on 01 November 2021, 17:48:40
artix can make their own gui package manager like octopi and call it artpac
Most of the Artix developers (hope all) can use pacman in terminal.
You are free to install anything you want be it nvidiía proprietary drivers, systemd, pamac, octopi, ubuntu, electron, nodejs... I have no idea how is Artix blocking you.
If you want to make another GUI wrapper for pacman you are free to do so, Artix has nothing to do with it.
These are my thoughts on the subject.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: strajder on 01 November 2021, 17:58:17
People are overdramatizing the clarifications on AUR, pamac and octopi.
The gist is (again) that Artix doesn't officially support them, which means that users can't expect us to fix problems related to AUR packages and those two tools: pamac and octopi.
Far from it that we forbid them to install any of the above, but if they do, they are on their own if there are any problems.
We can help with official Artix packages or work on fixing bugs in the official Artix packages.
I am using AUR packages myself, but I know how to be careful with them and fix problems which might arise.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: ivan_XI on 01 November 2021, 18:28:45
blocking who ?? i am free to speak on my mind since artix team leader don't mind, i am curious about creating my owned gui package manager for my work since artix and arch packages already usable with pacman commands...not sure i have to make separate one for every init version..mine is S6...not sure they need to continue Suite66 still when S6 manage on their owned well than last version since both are the same..just s66 take tad longer to boot than S6..memory wise..i see no difference when using plasma...problem is plasma had many bugs since releasing version 5.19...now 5.23 gets better with nvidia users but still problem with overclockers and fan control still base on x11, not sure nvidia start making xwayland apps now or pure wayland...another thing about wayland...why developers thought xorg stop development when developers just taking a break, to me its lack of communication by wayland folks and linux community member...not us , cause we have the best forum that they keep everyone up to date whats happening in the community...but folks over sysd and wayland...they took the cake when xorg announce big update with next major version...so whats the point making wayland now?? anyway only thing the linux community did right is inviting sel4 community that was only wise decision they ever made for past 30 years for linux kernel developers on their foundation...now thats what i am talking about...imagine they gonna shared sel4 source code for linux foundation it will be amazing future kernel update with new security and improved managing hardware layer when loading the driver in secured way as possible under sel4+linux kernel without losing performance, this got me interested now with hybrid kernel aspect now, since linux kernel is very modifiable to custom variation...making smaller while sel4 be hypervisor for the kernel activity making sure no one else but only the user privileged have access to it
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: Longview3k on 04 November 2021, 13:53:48
I asked Morganamilo, Developer of Paru, about this issue, and she said that every AUR Helper should be deferring to Pacman which will respect the Repo Order and that Pamac is weird and does weird things.
I have used paru for quite a while on Artix and I haven't had any issues at all, aside from a couple of broken links in PKGBUILDs which I had to fix manually and was the fault of the package maintainer, so I was surprised to hear that an AUR helper isn't following the computer's repo order.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: Thats_me on 17 November 2021, 17:07:58
I have installed octopi 0.12.0-2 from the universe. I use octopi only to look for installed packages an updates, or news from Artix. Updates, installation an uninstall I make only with pacman in the terminal.
Up to now I never had problems with octopi. Is the warning only for that case, to use octopi for make updates or installation? Or ask in a other way. Ist ist dangerous, if I use octopi only for looking to news, updates and search for packages?
I also have installed some AUR. AUR I make with trizen. I never used pamac.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: Artist on 17 November 2021, 18:04:01
The highest risk of problems is indeed probably with pamac, but you need to be careful with all AUR helpers. An always make sure to have a valid baclup before applying changes.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: camosoul on 18 November 2021, 13:59:54
I'm a Linux user from the early days of Gentoo. My brain has been fried by the stress of Orwellian garbage, so I appreciate how well Artix "just works" and saves me so much trouble.
I don't understand why people want to complicate their lives with crutches. I've never met the GUI packamanager I didn't hate, and this goes back almost 25 years... I've seen it all. I hate it all. I can't figure out why anyone would want it.
It's nothing to do with usability. It's nothing to do with being a "new user." People are just brainwashed to think "the black screen where you type stuff" is scary. IT's not. It's your best friend. The sooner you get over that BS the better. You do not help newbies by continuing to insulate them from reality with flaky programs that cause more trouble than they are worth. Breaking a "newbie" of that fake mental block is more helpful than continuing to lie to them.
I use yay. I rarely use the AUR. Yeah, I have the Arch repos enabled, but I don't think I actually have anything from them installed right now. I've been with Artix for over a year, and through quite a bit of the growing pains. It's been handled as gracefully as I could expect for stuff I don't pay for... Even that is saying less than they deserve. Artix reminds me of the good ol' days. I digress... I use yay for it's quality of life features, not the AUR really. There is some HAM Radio stuff I'd like to play with which I doubt will ever be in the official repos, but that's all back-burner project stuff at the moment. I don't really use it anymore. Artix has grown up so much in the last 18 months, in the midst of some extreme turbulence the likes of which the world, let alone the nerd sector, has ever seen. It's been not just acceptable, but astonishingly smooth. I probably would have given up if it wasn't for Artix.
I appreciate that every flavor of init and gui is available out-of-the-box. I think thisis the eprfect model. Duh, it's why I'm here.
So I re-iterate the main topic... Why do you even want those disastrous GUI package managers? WHY? It's merely the brainwashed people who can't break the habit of pretty picture clicky clicky... It's like people who refuse to read a book that isn't written by Dr. Seuss... Step up! You're much more capable than you think you are. The console is actually EASIER. Once you use the console for more stuff you'll wish you broke yourself of the mind trap sooner.
Not because I'm some expert. I'm not. In spite of over 2 decades playing in Linux, my brain damage makes me quite terrible at all this... My experience only lends "been there, done that" to the conversation, not any expertise. I suck! I truly do! That's why I want the simplest most reliable option, and it sure as sh!t isn't a GUI package manager like pamac or octopi. If I had to use those things, I'd quit Linux. And I did. I used manjaro for about a week. I could not nope out of the mess fast enough. Holy crap, how does anyone use that thing?
I've tried it all. I've seen it all. My brain is fried. I can't deal with BS. I have no patience at all. I very much prefer pacman/yay by a wide margin, over anything I've ever seen or used in the past 20+ years. Also, The overall Artix philosophy. I'm grateful people took this monumental task upon themselves... I probably wouldn't have a computer anymore without it. Artix has been a lifeline for me. I'd be utterly screwed without it. "It just works." And it's absent all the corruption and mind-warping unrelated politics crap. It reminds me of 1998, ah, good times...
After all these years, I still don't even use vi. I don't have enough brains left. I use nano... I want you to understand my full perspective. I'm basically as obnoxious and impatient as a "noob." In many ways, I'm worse because I often know better but I just don't have enough brain left to do things right... I loathe graphical package mangers. I hate anything that tries to hide the nut and bolts behind a facade of BS. Anything like that is invariably far more complex and messy than just using the proper tools directly on console. Just do it!
I'm glad pamac and octopi are gone. They don't help noobs at all. Noobs think they need it because they're brainwashed. But, reality is that what they really need is to break free of the thought prison. Really, just use the console. It's way easier. I don't even use yay for the AUR helper features. Just the creature comforts, quality of life improvements. Even that is optional. Pacman is fine.
Universe repo, big good.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: Oltean on 18 November 2021, 15:34:43
For me, octopi and pamac are more confusing than helpful. I use pkgbrowser from AUR to quickly get information about packages. For operations on packages (installation, deletion, etc ..) I use pacman in the terminal. I would be grateful if someone could be found to maintain the pkgbrowser and move it to the universe.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: strajder on 18 November 2021, 20:26:24
Just to clarify, what would people substitute with bloated GUI programs:
It was so easy I feel stupid for not looking into it and handling it sooner.
...now put it in Universe so I don't need AUR. :D
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: Siltaar on 27 December 2021, 10:18:05
Hi,
We, at the Linux User Group : Gebull, decided to install Artix Linux on the machines that pass by our hands to avoid SystemD and send a rolling-release distro in the wild, used by non-tech users (this kind of person that simply use a computer, for instance for state taxes and visio-conferences).
This users won't do crazy things with pamac, but they will click on the red shield to pass updates. The promess we made to them was that they would not be stranded by major updates anymore.
Suddently removing pamac from accessible repositories will fail every user we converted since merely 2 years.
PS our work on Artix : https://framagit.org/gebull/install (fr)
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: strajder on 27 December 2021, 11:34:56
This users won't do crazy things with pamac, but they will click on the red shield to pass updates. The promess we made to them was that they would not be stranded by major updates anymore.
Suddently removing pamac from accessible repositories will fail every user we converted since merely 2 years.
"Non-tech users" should either leave system administration to "tech users" or learn how to properly administer their systems. pamac does more harm than good, and by using it "non-tech users" would arrive at a point where they have a nonfunctional system which they don't know how to fix.
So, no.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: Siltaar on 27 December 2021, 14:38:19
Quote
pamac does more harm than good
What kind harm would be driven by Artix updates ?
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: strajder on 27 December 2021, 15:12:20
Read the (more than two month old) thread, please. pamac and octopi are still available, just moved to universe repo. They aren't available by default and aren't officially supported by Artix.
I don't understand in which case Pamac will replace Artix packages by Arch ones. Is it possible with regular Artix updates also ?
I am not familiar w/pamac so I don't know. I presume if your repositories are configured properly this shouldn't happen provided pamac abides by the repo order. Personally I use octopi with my Plasma installation quite a bit and have never had any serious issues of any kind in several years. Octopi will install through a terminal so you can verify the origins and nature of what will be installed. I don't think pamac has that option but as I said I am not familiar with its workings.
Best regards.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: camosoul on 29 December 2021, 20:34:40
"Non-tech users" should either leave system administration to "tech users" or learn how to properly administer their systems.
People unwilling to learn basic adult responsibilities are a headache no matter where they go. Seems a lot of them want some weird Twitter bragging rites of "Ooo look at me I do a linuxez," but without actually learning anything or doing anything. A handout.
They want tech welfare handed to them and then claim accomplishment. These are the same people who can't drive standard, hire an electrician to change a light bulb, and have no idea what canning jars are for.
Grow up.
Be an adult.
Take care of your own stuff.
A childish, irresponsible Linux user is not a Linux user.
It's a poseur.
If they actually bothered to learn anything, they'd realize there's nothing to brag about. I've been doing this Linux bit for over 20 years, and I truly suck at it. I tell people I use Artix and OpenBSD not to brag, but to warn them and keep them from bothering me with their stupid Windows and iOS and "duhvice" garbage.
"Sorry, can't help you. I don't play with toys."
If I throw in a little snide arrogance, it's just additional deterrence. I'm bad at this and I know it. I have no bragging rites. I have not a leg to stand on with arrogance. I suck.
But, I try. I learn. I make the effort.
I'll gladly help someone who's serious, but how many people like that are there? "Muh Linux adoption" isn't a problem of outreach to lazy morons. It's that outreach doesn't work with lazy morons. It's a total waste of time, money and manpower. You're trying to slam a revolving door. You cannot taste the number purple. It doesn't even make sense.
I love that Artix doesn't waste time on a fool's errand.
People either want to take responsibility, or they don't. Most don't. No amount of "outreach" will change them into adults. They are perpetual children. Leave them be and spend you efforts on something that matters instead.
"You want to be lazy and mess things up even worse for no reason? Okay. Here. Bye." - Frustrated Universe Repo
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” - C.S. Lewis
That last sentence is the key.
We're all born ignorant infants. It's a matter of those who willfully choose to stay that way, and become useless domesticated pets, imbeciles, wards of Big Brother... Or those who choose to embrace being a complete human being.
Sorry to get philosophical, but it's at the root of the problem. Look around at the condition of the world to see what happens when people like that take over... This matter is at the root of the problem, and no matter what is or isn't in the Universe repo; such severely defective people cannot be fixed, and accommodating them only leads to being tormented by them. Don't.
...putting the nVidia 470xx in Universe is backed by the same wisdom as the 390xx that's already there ... that's all I'm really trying to say...
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: nous on 30 December 2021, 21:11:04
We, at the Linux User Group : Gebull, decided to install Artix Linux on the machines that pass by our hands to avoid SystemD and send a rolling-release distro in the wild, used by non-tech users (this kind of person that simply use a computer, for instance for state taxes and visio-conferences).
We do appreciate this move, but I can't help telling you that rolling-release distros (not just Artix) don't like the general, non-tech audience. They tend to break easier than cycle-release distros. Even a delayed mirror sync can make an important application to stop functioning due to a bumped shared library, until the mirror syncs and the system is updated again. Now, this can be avoided if the user is educated to either resist the urge to click the red button, or if that button isn't there in the first place.
This users won't do crazy things with pamac, but they will click on the red shield to pass updates. The promess we made to them was that they would not be stranded by major updates anymore.
That promise is hard to keep. Even Arch and Manjaro, with all their manpower, eventually need manual intervention. Hell, even Microsoft has been botching windows updates for years.
Suddently removing pamac from accessible repositories will fail every user we converted since merely 2 years.
Technically, pamac is still installed and working. If it stops working, all the better for the end-users: they won't be able to ruin their systems. @strajder is right about the harm pamac and octopi can do: if you break your system, you can't restore it with GUI pacman front-ends; you need to use the command line. Anyway, you can very easily update pacman.conf of those PCs with the [universe] repository and things will resume as usual.
PS our work on Artix : https://framagit.org/gebull/install (fr)
This is the first we hear about a bulk adoption of Artix and it's very encouraging. Merci!
May I suggest a couple of things, if you haven't yet implemented them: 1) have sshd listening on those PCs, preferably on non-standard ports, so you can fix problems without having to leave your house, and 2) instruct the users or even place a sticker on the monitor: "Do not update unless the administrator is present!" Also, out of curiosity, which Artix ISO did you use?
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: strajder on 30 December 2021, 21:23:30
place a sticker on the monitor: "Do not update unless the administrator is present!"
Very much this, or something in that spirit. Package management is administration. Administration should be done by people who are knowledgeable in it, simple as that.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: Siltaar on 08 January 2022, 13:34:09
Hi,
Thanks for the constructive answers.
Sure already installed Pamacs will remain. I experienced that libpamac update creates unsolvable dependencies and fails all updates. If you remove libpamac you easily end-up with no more Pamac…
We use OpenRC / XFCE ISOs (§ (https://framagit.org/gebull/install#user-content-lien-de-t%C3%A9l%C3%A9chargement)) : - OpenRC was the 1st tested init (Gentoo devs are serious) it works, it is well documented : go for it - XFCE offers a homogeneous graphical experience with enough setting panels. It remains the same over the years and runs well on old hardware. (development is nearly dead ? great, it preserves it from bloated GTK3)
We tested LXDE, but it's not as complete as XFCE and it is not saving enough RAM to justify the loss in comfort in our case. Now that the main LXDE dev turned to LXQT, we might test LXQT one day. But I can't help but remember how GTK became a general purpose graphical lib after QT switched non-libre.
Regarding administration needs, our small Linux User Group holds regular thursday evening meetings and offers to fix problems for geographically near users.
As for philosophy, I've been after the world "like it should be" for decades, and switched during the last one about the world "like it is" (with the people actually in it). Some of those people are OK to make the effort to use alternative software to avoid GAFAM (it is their contribution to make the world better), but won't take computer science engineering class. We live in a society that is not giving them the choice about using a computer or not.
So, I'm still "all for education" but meanwhile we need pragmatic solutions. And it's in this spirit that I work on Meta-Press.es (https://www.meta-press.es). It's not a miracle, but it already works.
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: camosoul on 21 January 2022, 10:33:44
Since I started out on Gentoo, my thoughts were OpenRC.
I was using Xubuntu as well... So, I was accustomed to XFCE.
Both of these were a mistake.
I tried out runit/plasma...
Woah baby! KDE isn't the horrible blob it used to be. It's only slightly heavier than XFCE, and much slicker. I just needed a few tweaks to the systemtray/taskbar and I was in love.
...and I don't have to spend three-and-a-half days waiting for it to compile...
Mwah! Thank you, Artix; for bringing sanity back to Linuxland. Dare I say... Maybe I could try my old friend blackbox/openbox again someday? On Artix, it might just work properly...
Title: Re: Octopi and Pamac moved to [universe]
Post by: camosoul on 21 January 2022, 14:25:35
At the risk of spamming the place up and making snowflakes hate me....
Installing packages is even easier. You type even less, and you don't even have to get it right. Don't worry about knowing the full, proper package name. For example, I want to install my nvidia 470xx drivers. I don't have to know that the package is named nvidia-470xx-[something]. See I don't even remember and I can't be bothered to look. so I just type this:
It performs a search, shows the information for all search results, and then it asks me which of the search results I'd like to install. All in one shot, and I typed a whole 7 characters including the space. It even shows it in ascending order of least to most desirable repo.
See? I didn't even know that the package name was [nvidia-470xx-dkms]. It's conveniently showing me the opencl doodad, too. All I have to do is type "1 3" and hit enter. The utils package is actually a dependency and gets pulled in...
10 whole characters typed.
How do you not love this?
I just pick what I want off the list, poof. I can be a complete moron, which I am, and still get this done with less work and less typing than the smart guy.
Why install disasterous bloatware?
Installing yay is 4 lines, and it has so many cool quality-of-life features. I'm not sure why it's not installed by default, frankly... IT's such a tiny package, why not? I don't even use it for the aur stuff, though that's nice. It sure helped me on my nvidia driver situation prior to the proper drivers being added to universe.
This is the first thing I run on a fresh install of Artix or ArchLinuxArm (I really wish Armtix was moving along better, but I understand).