General Category => Off-Topic => Topic started by: replabrobin on 09 July 2025, 09:38:29
Title: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: replabrobin on 09 July 2025, 09:38:29
This blog (https://ariadne.space/2025/07/07/two-weeks-of-wayback.html) seems to have opened a new political front in the X.org --> XLibre fork.
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Recently, a group of neofascist reactionaries announced a fork of the X.org server which, amongst other things, has introduced new security bugs into the X server they forked from X.org
I have to admit I haven't ever thought my preferences for one version or another of say an editor or other program could lead to my outing as a member of any political grouping.
Is this sort of language just part of a new generation's views ie are all old things/ideas just to be condemned outright?
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: Artist on 09 July 2025, 09:47:50
20 yrs ago people had many discussions, often debates (both with at least some respect for each other) and sometimes a war. People have changed and the process was expedited by the internet. Where have the debates and discussions gone?
About Wayback, did not the sole dev throw the towel? https://ghostarchive.org/archive/jS1VO
An article about Xorg and Xlibre: https://felipec.wordpress.com/2025/07/08/xorg-neglect/
artist
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: darcy on 09 July 2025, 10:13:58
Just google duckduckgo Ariadne Conill and everything will become clear.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 09 July 2025, 11:28:49
This blog (https://ariadne.space/2025/07/07/two-weeks-of-wayback.html) seems to have opened a new political front in the X.org --> XLibre fork.
Quote
Recently, a group of neofascist reactionaries announced a fork of the X.org server which, amongst other things, has introduced new security bugs into the X server they forked from X.org
I have to admit I haven't ever thought my preferences for one version or another of say an editor or other program could lead to my outing as a member of any political grouping.
Is this sort of language just part of a new generation's views ie are all old things/ideas just to be condemned outright?
Why are we dragging violent speech from another place here? There is no reason. The Artix devs have respectfully built an ecosystem for Linux with a minimum of useless name calling and hostility.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: artoo on 09 July 2025, 11:53:24
Is this sort of language just part of a new generation's views ie are all old things/ideas just to be condemned outright?
It is a kind of defamation and stigmatizing opposition for the last ~80 years, no different than calling "witch!" and pointing your finger at a random guy. All done to avoid factual discussion.
"Neofascist" is kind of Soviet, EU and UN language. Tells more about the accuser than about the imaginary opponent.
I would ask users on the forum to please avoid opening a distro war can of worms. No one in the team is interested in that.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: nous on 09 July 2025, 12:10:24
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a group of neofascist reactionaries
Opinion discarded.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: artoo on 09 July 2025, 12:18:46
Totally agreed. In addition, no DE/WM war, no political arguments here.
One of the reasons these flamewars on politics inflame so quickly is because they require no real expertise to participate. People, often previously unknown to us, just pop in and drop their mental illness in the thread with declarations of being knowing and experienced. And that brings in more crazies.... some can even be decent coders because expertise on tech doesn't default to expertise on fascism or a lack of mental illness.
It is just best to not engage in this. It serves no positive purpose. In the end, individuals leanings will become self-evident anyway and who cares... nobody has ever, to my knowledge, died of execution because of support for emacs instead of vim, or which X server they run.
The reasons for the x.org fork is now well documented, and really, anyone with a long view of this knew it was coming and even hoped for it.
To the degree that the wayland people resort to name calling etc, that is on them. Building and using good software that protects essential digital freedoms, that is what artix does best. The circus adds nothing to getting where we hope to be.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 09 July 2025, 14:37:36
I miss the good old days where only the product (Yes, product. Not code. Because this problem affects all other fields too.) matters. Where it didn't matter what or who you were.
These people are so privileged/sheltered/fortunate that they're so sensitive. Not able to grow thick skin.
These types are even more sensitive this classic compound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU46hQ_xO0k
What happens then, when a core irreplaceable and irremovable function of wayland code turns out it came from someone who has an even 1% difference of views? Do they move/make a new display stack again?
Totally agreed. In addition, no DE/WM war, no political arguments here.
One of the reasons these flamewars on politics inflame so quickly is because they require no real expertise to participate. People, often previously unknown to us, just pop in and drop their mental illness in the thread with declarations of being knowing and experienced. And that brings in more crazies.... some can even be decent coders because expertise on tech doesn't default to expertise on fascism.
It is just best to not engage in this. It serves no positive purpose. In the end, individuals leanings will become self-evident anyway and who cares... nobody has ever, to my knowledge, died of execution because of support for emacs instead of vim, or which X server they run.
The reasons for the x.org fork is now well documented, and really, anyone with a long view of this knew it was coming and even hoped for it.
To the degree that the wayland people resort to name calling etc, that is on them. Building and using good software that protects essential digital freedoms, that is what artix does best. The circus adds nothing to getting where we hope to be.
The way I see it is that the debate/argument isn't the problem in of itself. It's when children posing as adults barge in but cannot handle it.
Edit: It's like giving a child a nuclear missile.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: Shoun2137 on 09 July 2025, 16:02:37
Mane, I was eating lunch and now I feel like I'm gon throw up.
As a concept Wayback is just laughable. This thing won't run a proper full DE without being seriously gimped in functionality and running a simple WM such as i3wm isn't a feat. Without having proper support for various stuff like logical "primary" monitor that those obtuse wayland morons are debating in their little protocol council this thing has 0 chance of being usable. These people are veto'ing protocols that are useful and what normal casual users want. Just read this https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/179 it's like you're looking through the glass at an adult daycare for fake and gay retards ffs.
The primary endgoal of wayland is to divide and stall progress of non-corpo desktops. And it's absolutely working. Right now most of the "big and stable" DEs compositors are somewhat close when it comes to functionality, but in a future this will create a clusterfuck of incompatible software just because some of those DEs won't support a protocol/concept they deem "worthless". I'd argue that at that point there will be a fork of the core wayland, but closed source for use in "professional corpo suit" as it's MIT licensed. I bet RH/IBM are salivating at the thought of this.
But the worst thing is the political degeneracy that those ugly people bring. I don't even have to mention the recent GNOME/Canonical p3do/pr3d4tor scandal? (https://x.com/LundukeJournal/status/1942350533890609368) Why are those people protected, while Enrico is suddenly a "nazi" and should be banned everywhere?
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: ####### on 10 July 2025, 03:12:58
While apparently coming more from an extremist antifa school of thought in some regards, looking at some of Ariadne's other blog posts there is also a lot I think we could agree with too, promoting open source projects in general, so perhaps we can still hope this dear lady might look more favorably upon Xlibre in time as the project progresses and the benefits become clearer, if they do. In one of her posts talking about social media she says this: "The other key part of the formula: sow discord amongst the users. This can be done organically (by users) or algorithmically. People have an inherent desire to be right, and this keeps the engagement loop going as people fight over stupid things like whether Android or iPhones are better." So she might also understand that we should be careful to avoid being set against each other for someone else's benefit.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 10 July 2025, 03:42:12
The way I see it is that the debate/argument isn't the problem in of itself. It's when children posing as adults barge in but cannot handle it.
Edit: It's like giving a child a nuclear missile.
Arguing over political opinions can never resolve on internet forums and it is just not appropriate here.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: dpx on 10 July 2025, 11:32:06
Shock/horror: Something is off-topic in Off-Topic section? Maybe mods can additionally create Off-Off-Topic to move off-topic posts from Off-Topic section?
There is this guy on other forum who was self proclaimed hall monitor, always butting in to declare something off-topic or inappropriate. Coupled with his very low level of understanding, he was constantly interrupting conversations in a arrogant and self-righteous manner. In memory of thrilby (or something like that) I declare this topic of low interest to me but completely valid. Feel free to carry on with my official stamp of approval...
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: gripped on 10 July 2025, 12:45:42
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If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
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The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.
Quote
Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.
So speaketh Eric
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 10 July 2025, 13:43:33
Shock/horror: Something is off-topic in Off-Topic section?
that is not the shocking part.... as I am sure a nice intelligent fellow such as yourself understands.
I have seen forums just shift politics off the forum to a different sister forum which many of the members enjoyed engaging in without disrupting the main forum. It actually worked pretty well.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 10 July 2025, 13:48:15
Is this sort of language just part of a new generation's views ie are all old things/ideas just to be condemned outright?
It is a kind of defamation and stigmatizing opposition for the last ~80 years, no different than calling "witch!" and pointing your finger at a random guy. All done to avoid factual discussion.
"Neofascist" is kind of Soviet, EU and UN language. Tells more about the accuser than about the imaginary opponent.
I would ask users on the forum to please avoid opening a distro war can of worms. No one in the team is interested in that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 10 July 2025, 13:51:07
The way I see it is that the debate/argument isn't the problem in of itself. It's when children posing as adults barge in but cannot handle it.
Edit: It's like giving a child a nuclear missile.
Arguing over political opinions can never resolve on internet forums and it is just not appropriate here.
That's quite the blanket statement. I think it's more nuanced. FOSS/FSF politics is still politics and I think that is a lot of people in the FOSS world align themselves with it. The only reason why it never gets resolved is because of my statement above.
Moving on from that.
Note (descriptor): When I say left I mean the extreme far left unless explicitly mentioned otherwise.
I think X11Libre is only seen as political (on the left side atleast) because the people on the left want it so. When it's clear that on the X11Libre git readme, It explicitly denounces any political affiliation. They (the left) have a purist tribalistic stance on everything. AKA if you're not with us, you're against us. As well as being seen as a subhuman/pest.
Been following the xserver git and metux seems to just be focused on the code. He himself maybe more political in other sites but it's irrelevant to the X11Libre git repo being labeled as political.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: dpx on 10 July 2025, 14:01:02
I have seen forums just shift politics off the forum to a different sister forum which many of the members enjoyed engaging in without disrupting the main forum. It actually worked pretty well.
There are mods for that, if you don't like some topic stay out of it or use report button. Yelling 'inappropriate' often and fast is derailing every topic where you do that.
If we all start acting like hall monitors there is little discussion of value to happen, in between cycles of showing who is more righteous. Like you already heard a few times, might be a good idea to tone down and not feel obliged to post on every topic. Especially if you post only to explain how stupid some thread or post is, most likely it is not and you misunderstood what it's about.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 10 July 2025, 14:23:28
I have seen forums just shift politics off the forum to a different sister forum which many of the members enjoyed engaging in without disrupting the main forum. It actually worked pretty well.
There are mods for that, if you don't like some topic stay out of it or use report button. Yelling 'inappropriate' often and fast is derailing every topic where you do that.
I don't yell and I don't complain about topics being inappropriate often. Perhaps you just seem to enjoy those topics.
However, you might have a point about the off-topic section being used as a dumping ground for arguing about politics, and other inflammatory topics. We have a General Discussion section and Off-Topics. So I lean to agree with you, although I would rename the section to "troll bait, character assignation and politics"
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: ####### on 10 July 2025, 15:32:42
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I think X11Libre is only seen as political (on the left side at least) because the people on the left want it so.
The notion of left or right wing political groups being extremist is promoted by the mainstream center parties to keep in power, but we are increasingly seeing centrist extremism. The criticisms being brought up have nothing to do with left or right wing ideology and are more the values being currently pushed by the centrists, including those who are inaccurately categorized as liberals, when in fact liberal ideology is to simply let everyone believe and do whatever they want if it isn't bothering anyone else. The proposed bans on the right wing but significantly popular AFD in Germany by the mainstream parties is a good example of this kind of developing centrist extremism, the kind of action you would historically have expected from a far right or left government.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 10 July 2025, 16:14:50
I think X11Libre is only seen as political (on the left side at least) because the people on the left want it so.
The notion of left or right wing political groups being extremist is promoted by the mainstream center parties to keep in power, but we are increasingly seeing centrist extremism. The criticisms being brought up have nothing to do with left or right wing ideology and are more the values being currently pushed by the centrists, including those who are inaccurately categorized as liberals, when in fact liberal ideology is to simply let everyone believe and do whatever they want if it isn't bothering anyone else. The proposed bans on the right wing but significantly popular AFD in Germany by the mainstream parties is a good example of this kind of developing centrist extremism, the kind of action you would historically have expected from a far right or left government.
I think that's irrelevant; and I'd like to explore more on who those parties you speak of, but not here as that would I think deviate/derail this thread.
One only need to look at the actions of what X party has done. Which groups of people were the ones calling someone a nazi, <insert-label>-phobes, <insert-label>-ist, and other labels (such as calling someone far right) for a difference in opinion? Which groups of people were banning people in foss spaces for having different ideals even just by simply choosing to be neutral? Hyperland and now X11Libre for example. For some reason those groups of people lean only in one direction.
I refuse to call them not the extreme left as I do have some left leaning friends who are very reasonable and not get a kernel panic when they see/hear someone who has different views or even just lean slightly away from them.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: Pragma Once on 10 July 2025, 17:14:15
In Linux there's a file system developed by a guy who killed his wife and nobody bats an eye, but an X server with an anti-corporate readme is neofascist (whatever that means) and shall not be used?
The hell happened in the last decade?
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: ####### on 10 July 2025, 20:38:03
Well check out what Marx and Lenin had to say on the subject, an accusation of others being far right doesn't mean the accuser is far left when their other views definitely don't fall into this category. A simple 2 dimensional model of politics is insufficient to describe the complexities. Imagine a third dimension being added where people might occupy a position horizontally and can vary vertically thus distancing themselves from the mean while promoting what is neither a far left or right ideology to excessive levels. :D
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: Shoun2137 on 11 July 2025, 04:03:56
Let's go back to this... individuum in the picture. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/issues/375 Seems like he tries to discredit Xlibre by its technical merit, but failed miserably to address anything of substance...
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: Pragma Once on 11 July 2025, 05:23:18
Let's go back to this... individuum in the picture. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/issues/375 Seems like he tries to discredit Xlibre by its technical merit, but failed miserably to address anything of substance...
That individual simply linked a pull request that fixes a bug and called it "security bugs" (plural) without elaborating further, with nothing on the PR suggesting it's fixing a security vulnerability. But even if said person was right, introducing regression just to discover and fix them later is just a part of software development, so nothing was proven but that XLibre is being developed, and a distro developer should know it, so it strikes me as nothing more than an attempt at slander.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 11 July 2025, 13:35:17
Well check out what Marx and Lenin had to say on the subject, an accusation of others being far right doesn't mean the accuser is far left when their other views definitely don't fall into this category. A simple 2 dimensional model of politics is insufficient to describe the complexities. Imagine a third dimension being added where people might occupy a position horizontally and can vary vertically thus distancing themselves from the mean while promoting what is neither a far left or right ideology to excessive levels. :D
There are two points in your statement.
The first point: "Do your own research."/"Just google it." Telling people to research your answer for you is not a compelling arguement. Even an RTFM with a link to a wiki section is better than this.
Second point: "People are complex. Not everything is black and white but rather a spectrum." It's actually a good point on the grand scheme of things. But these things are isolated. It's not that deep. Pattern recognition is not only enough to identify these types of people. In fact it works every single time. Pattern recognition is something we all have and is so good that AI and Branch Prediction is inspired from it.
Again, just look at the people besmirching on X11Libre and anyone with functioning eyes, brain, and is not being intellectually dishonest can see this.
I will move on from this because I don't think we will come to an agreement, at least not at the cost of further diverting from this thread's topic. If you want to continue, we can. Just not in this thread.
Let's go back to this... individuum in the picture. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/issues/375 Seems like he tries to discredit Xlibre by its technical merit, but failed miserably to address anything of substance...
Let's go back to this... individuum in the picture. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/issues/375 Seems like he tries to discredit Xlibre by its technical merit, but failed miserably to address anything of substance...
That individual simply linked a pull request that fixes a bug and called it "security bugs" (plural) without elaborating further, with nothing on the PR suggesting it's fixing a security vulnerability. But even if said person was right, introducing regression just to discover and fix them later is just a part of software development, so nothing was proven but that XLibre is being developed, and a distro developer should know it, so it strikes me as nothing more than an attempt at slander.
As is their modus operandi (subversion or astroturfing). Like how they try to frame metux as an incompetent developer. And yet at the same time demands this supposedly incompetent developer's 24/7 beck and call. As well as accepting metux's commits until this fiasco.
The re-development of wayback seems to just be reactionary. If X11Libre fork wasn't made I doubt this and the sudden update of xorg would have happened.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: artoo on 12 July 2025, 11:54:22
Well check out what Marx and Lenin had to say on the subject,
Actually, have you, yourself read them? I would be very careful with this, it would be tempting to quote Lenin or Mr Levi Marx here just to show a very repulsive, violent, deceptive ideology that has caused millions of dead and misery. You also realize Marx was cousin of a pretty (in)famous banking dynasty that has been into private central banking? The EU bureaucrats all hold these people dear.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 12 July 2025, 14:46:28
Arguing over political opinions can never resolve on internet forums and it is just not appropriate here.
That's quite the blanket statement.
CRAP. It is only a blanket statement to the degree that it is observed in ***ALL*** internet forums where arguing about politics NEVER resolves ANYTHING....EVER.
Nobody is ever convinced of anything. No political outcomes ever happen because of them. OCCASIONALLY such a forum triggers someone truly mentally ill to do a random act of violence.
Other than that, it total fucks up the atmosphere of the forum.
The only thing it does is destroy the harmony of purpose of the forum that is being exposed to this form of poison.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 12 July 2025, 14:53:05
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
Quote
The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.
Quote
Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.
So speaketh Eric
This Eric quote (whoever Eric is) amounts to
A) I will continue to badger you with off-topic offensive speech and character assassination, whether you like it or not. (In Brooklyn as I grew up this would get you a sock in the mouth). B) I am righteously justified in purposefully offending you on subjects we weren't even discussing without reason or cause. C) and I know ***ALL*** the truths... and you are all Neo-Fascist idiots for thinking otherwise.
I am sick of all this. I am sick of the toxicity from the Left, the Right, the Middle.
This forum is about talking about software... even the __off-topic__ section is about Free Software and the Linux ecology. Let other places carry this toxic content. This is neutral ground for tech support and software development relating to Artix, Linux and Free Software. Everyone should be able to come here and engage in THOSE subjects without feeling assaulted and trolled without cause.
This thread has been skating along the edge since the XLibre project was announced. We all KNOW that the initial fork was proceeded by a lot of mudslinging in other venues about global politics with all the character assassination, hostility, and hatred that is part and parcel of these types of digressions. Let all that toxicity remain THERE. Or bring it to usenet, or do what Richard did, start your own website and blog away about it until Kingdom Come. Get yourself a youtube channel and open an X/Twitter account. Go for it. But keep it out of here.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 12 July 2025, 15:22:13
You also realize Marx was cousin of a pretty (in)famous banking dynasty that has been into private central banking?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FSWm67IhDU
Yeah - aside from the obvious inaccuracy, it would be pointed out that among the 13 million of us left in the world, we are almost all cousins, mostly by less than 6 relations. And how else are we going to control the world without first controlling the banks with fiat money.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 12 July 2025, 15:33:18
CRAP. It is only a blanket statement to the degree that it is observed in ***ALL*** internet forums where arguing about politics NEVER resolves ANYTHING....EVER.
Nobody is ever convinced of anything. No political outcomes ever happen because of them. OCCASIONALLY such a forum triggers someone truly mentally ill to do a random act of violence.
Other than that, it total fucks up the atmosphere of the forum.
The only thing it does is destroy the harmony of purpose of the forum that is being exposed to this form of poison.
Seems like I wasn't clear enough. By blanket statement I meant not which venue, where, etc. I meant the topic at hand. Politics is very wide encompassing. I thought the example of FOSS politics was enough for you to comprehend. So to put everything in one brush is just intellectually lazy. Every section of it is it's own niche. I.E. foss politics != social politics
A) I will continue to badger you with off-topic offensive speech and character assassination, whether you like it or not. (In Brooklyn as I grew up this would get you a sock in the mouth). B) I am righteously justified in offending you without reason or cause. C) and I know ALL the truths... and you are all Neo-Fascist idiots for thinking otherwise
I am sick of all this. I am sick of the toxicity from the Left, the Right, the Middle.
This forum is about talking about software... even the off-topic section is about Free Software. Let other places carry this toxic content. This is neutral ground for tech support and software development relating to Artix, Linux and Free Software. Everyone should be able to come here and engage in THOSE subjects without feeling assaulted and trolled without cause.
Just ignore the post you don't like then? X11Libre is being dragged as something of being political by the detractors. And this thread is addressing that and is mentioned by the thread's title. And even with that indicator like a big giant waving blinking flag, yet here you are.
No such thing as hate speech. I'm not even American and even I know this. Why are you assuming malicious intent in a post that only contains some quotes? (The quotes gripped posted)
This is part/included to what I was referring to earlier. People posing as adults but can't handle tough conversations without lashing out.
I understand that you don't like it, but this sudden sperging out seems out of place. This and the assumption of intent. Where you hoping to derail this thread and get it shut down?
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: jackie777 on 12 July 2025, 15:40:00
Im with you mrbrklyn i wish Politics is gone the world is better place without Politics even now bsd doing werid stuff, and im not political never will be i just want artix linux to be political-free and only talk about software, freedom, privacy, security, thats all i want, and everyone listen i want you to try to quit Politics you will feel much better person and happy lets only talk about positive things pls i love everybody in this forum "nous" "Artist" "cds" "mrbrklyn" "corysanin" "Dudemanguy" "gripped" :-* .
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 12 July 2025, 15:51:58
Eric (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell)
Quote
I am sick of the toxicity from the Left, the Right, the Middle.
Me too (not #metoo)
Quote
This forum is about talking about software... even the __off-topic__ section is about Free Software and the Linux ecology. Let other places carry this toxic content. This is neutral ground for tech support and software development relating to Artix, Linux and Free Software.
But it's impossible to ignore that many of these Free software projects are politicised. You only have to look a the the rabid response to Xlibre to see that.
If there is a thread about "Why does my touchpad not work?" And someone starts shouting about Nazi's and or identity politics then that would be trolling.
But it's reasonable to expect political discourse in a thread entitled "X11 as a political dispute". You, nor anyone, has to take part. Unless you are under some sort of # of posts a day contract ? There is no reason it has to be toxic. More Eric
Quote
What I have most wanted to do throughout the past ten years is to make political writing into an art. My starting point is always a feeling of partisanship, a sense of injustice. The opinion that art should have nothing to do with politics is itself a political attitude.
Quote
In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics'. All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 12 July 2025, 16:15:07
But it's reasonable to expect political discourse in a thread entitled "X11 as a political dispute". You, nor anyone. has to take part. Unless you are under some sort of # of posts a day contract ? There is no reason it has to be toxic.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 12 July 2025, 16:28:12
But it's reasonable to expect political discourse in a thread entitled "X11 as a political dispute". You, nor anyone, has to take part. Unless you are under some sort of # of posts a day contract ? There is no reason it has to be toxic. More Eric
Quote
What I have most wanted to do throughout the past ten years is to make political writing into an art. My starting point is always a feeling of partisanship, a sense of injustice. The opinion that art should have nothing to do with politics is itself a political attitude.
Quote
In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics'. All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia.
And yet, Low and Behold, the political thread has somehow devolved into Left-Right name callings with a sprinkling of anti-semetism just for extra spice!
Who would had ever thunk it.
It might seem reasonable, but it never works. This is not a dispassionate discussion of the political fallout and observations of the XLibre fork. It is a Me, Myself, I, conversation of peoples political views outside of Free Software issues. It can go back to the forum it originated from.
If these folks want to go out an write Animal Farm as a GNU-Linux Novella, by all means, go for it. Just don't drag it here.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: gripped on 12 July 2025, 16:56:24
And yet, Low and Behold, the political thread has somehow devolved into Left-Right name callings with a sprinkling of anti-semetism just for extra spice!
I reread the thread and I fail to see this. In the case of anti-Semitism I may be missing something subtle? Some sort of, as they call it, 'microaggression'? Or maybe it's obvious and I just missed it?
What I do see is you repeatedly saying "No politics, Tech forum", "No politics, Tech forum", "No politics, Tech forum", "No politics, Tech forum". Whilst ignoring the fact that you can't discuss the very real politicisation of tech without mentioning politics.
You seem to suggest that everybody else should bury their head in the sand and say nothing, to protect your sensibilities, rather than you just ceasing to engage with such threads.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: clappingsnowdrop on 12 July 2025, 17:02:32
But it's reasonable to expect political discourse in a thread entitled "X11 as a political dispute". You, nor anyone, has to take part. Unless you are under some sort of # of posts a day contract ? There is no reason it has to be toxic. More Eric
And yet, Low and Behold, the political thread has somehow devolved into Left-Right name callings with a sprinkling of anti-semetism just for extra spice!
Who would had ever thunk it.
It might seem reasonable, but it never works. This is not a dispassionate discussion of the political fallout and observations of the XLibre fork. It is a Me, Myself, I, conversation of peoples political views outside of Free Software issues. It can go back to the forum it originated from.
If these folks want to go out an write Animal Farm as a GNU-Linux Novella, by all means, go for it. Just don't drag it here.
You're acting like those people from X/twitter or bluesky right now. Seems to confirm my suspicion earlier of trying to derail the thread.
Until you chill out I choose to not engage with you further as I don't think it'll be productive to do so. We're talking about X11 as a political dispute. Not about "anti-semitism". No one even mentioned about the Semites.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: artoo on 12 July 2025, 17:06:07
Whilst ignoring the fact that you can't discuss the very real politicisation of tech without mentioning politics.
I agree with this observation from my own work experience. This is one of the reasons artix exists, xlibre is just the latest case of "DEI" and tyrannical policies cloaked as "inclusive and tolerant".
It about time to call a spade a spade, this mess lives from people silently going along with it while hiding the angry fist in the pocket.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 12 July 2025, 17:10:03
And yet, Low and Behold, the political thread has somehow devolved into Left-Right name callings with a sprinkling of anti-semetism just for extra spice!
Who would had ever thunk it.
It might seem reasonable, but it never works. This is not a dispassionate discussion of the political fallout and observations of the XLibre fork. It is a Me, Myself, I, conversation of peoples political views outside of Free Software issues. It can go back to the forum it originated from.
If these folks want to go out an write Animal Farm as a GNU-Linux Novella, by all means, go for it. Just don't drag it here.
You're acting like those people from X/twitter or bluesky right now. Seems to confirm my suspicion earlier of trying to derail the thread.
Until you chill out I choose to not engage with you further as I don't think it'll be productive to do so. We're talking about X11 as a political dispute. Not about "anti-semitism". No one even mentioned about the Semites.
That is a manipulation of the facts to suit your emotional needs. It has nothing to do with me.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 12 July 2025, 17:14:34
Whilst ignoring the fact that you can't discuss the very real politicisation of tech without mentioning politics.
I agree with this observation from my own work experience. This is one of the reasons artix exists, xlibre is just the latest case of "DEI" and tyrannical policies cloaked as "inclusive and tolerant".
It about time to call a spade a spade, this mess lives from people silently going along with it while hiding the angry fist in the pocket.
Do you you think that I am ever quiet? The best response is the adapting and support of the forked project. It is never productive to engage in name calling and forming witch hunts in an otherwise productive environment.
These social warriors want to lynch me and kill my children. It still doesn't belong HERE.
And more that a few antisemitic bigots have stalked me HERE, and it would be appreciated if folks did not make the Artix forum a comfortable place for them to spout off their hateful bigotry. I respect your efforts to protect digital freedoms, and to benevolent efforts to help people, and chose not to inflame this thread further. as that is the first and last I will say here on the topic.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: artoo on 12 July 2025, 17:19:25
Do you you think that I ever am quiet. The best response is the adapting and support of the forked project. It is never productive to engage in name calling and forming witch hunts in an otherwise productive environment.
These social warriors want to lynch me and kill my children. It still doesn't belong HERE.
I have no idea what you are on about. You will definitely not dictate my opinion.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: dpx on 12 July 2025, 17:19:42
Im with you mrbrklyn i wish Politics is gone the world is better place without Politics even now bsd doing werid stuff, and im not political never will be i just want artix linux to be political-free and only talk about software, freedom, privacy, security, thats all i want, and everyone listen i want you to try to quit Politics you will feel much better person and happy lets only talk about positive things pls i love everybody in this forum "nous" "Artist" "cds" "mrbrklyn" "corysanin" "Dudemanguy" "gripped" :-* .
By requesting for some discussion to stop or to steer it in another direction, you are in fact making political request, no matter the dressing. If you don't like it, healthy thing would be to stay away from topics you don't like, or report them to the mods (bottom-right -> More... -> Report Post).
For instance, I have huge problem with Styrofoam, can't stand the thing, especially screech sound it makes. If it ever happens that some topic here starts about Styrofoam or gets derailed into Styrofoam direction, I would make sure not to touch it at all. Even mentioning the thing makes me sick, so why would I bravely but foolishly stay with the discussion I don't like (or understand)?
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: cds on 12 July 2025, 17:23:13
Im with you mrbrklyn i wish Politics is gone the world is better place without Politics even now bsd doing werid stuff, and im not political never will be i just want artix linux to be political-free and only talk about software, freedom, privacy, security, thats all i want, and everyone listen i want you to try to quit Politics you will feel much better person and happy lets only talk about positive things pls i love everybody in this forum "nous" "Artist" "cds" "mrbrklyn" "corysanin" "Dudemanguy" "gripped" :-* .
By requesting for some discussion to stop or to steer it in another direction, you are in fact making political request, no matter the dressing. If you don't like it, healthy thing would be to stay away from topics you don't like, or report them to the mods (bottom-right -> More... -> Report Post).
For instance, I have huge problem with Styrofoam, can't stand the thing, especially screech sound it makes. If it ever happens that some topic here starts about Styrofoam or gets derailed into Styrofoam direction, I would make sure not to touch it at all. Even mentioning the thing makes me sick, so why would I bravely but foolishly stay with the discussion I don't like (or understand)?
Not your decision to make. It may be your opinion but by repeating it incessantly then I'm sorry, but thou hath becometh the troll.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: ####### on 12 July 2025, 17:28:54
To explain my earlier point further, the pro - LGBT views expressed by some more extremist critics of the xlibre project are from centre left politics and not the far left, although there may have been some exceptions and variations during some time periods and locations. You can even see the existence of modern pro - LGBT neo Nazis as an exception in the far right too. Hence the need for a 3 dimensional concept of political extremism. I think that one shouldn't discount ideas just because they come from those who you may not entirely agree with on other issues. It can also be educational to try to understand how others see things from their perspective.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 12 July 2025, 17:29:00
Not your decision to make. It may be your opinion but by repeating it incessantly then I'm sorry, but thou hath becometh the troll.
This troll didn't post the race theory that Jewish Bankers with Marxist roots are controlling the EU. That was the other troll. And that is where this inevitably devolved to.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 12 July 2025, 17:33:52
Do you you think that I ever am quiet. The best response is the adapting and support of the forked project. It is never productive to engage in name calling and forming witch hunts in an otherwise productive environment.
These social warriors want to lynch me and kill my children. It still doesn't belong HERE.
I have no idea what you are on about. You will definitely not dictate my opinion.
Of course NOT. Because nothing is ever resolved on the internet with regard to discussions of politics. This has been true on the net since it was invented and nothing has changed. The only place this leads to is alienating people and burning through ones good will. Do you really want to be like the Free Desktop people?
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: artoo on 12 July 2025, 17:39:46
Because nothing is ever resolved on the internet with regard to discussions of politics.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Case closed.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: ####### on 12 July 2025, 17:47:16
Interestingly as an aside, the name semites derives from the Bible and refers to the people or sons of Shem, which refers to all those living in the Middle East and the Horn of Africa, not just the Jewish people.
Title: Re: X11 as a political dispute
Post by: mrbrklyn on 12 July 2025, 17:47:27
These social warriors want to lynch me and kill my children. It still doesn't belong HERE.
Nobody here has said or even insinuated that. Rest assured - you and everyone here - we'd intervene immediately. I also don't like much of what's written here, but I can't see any clear or masked threats issued by any poster.
One thing is for certain, every single thread involving politics deviates from the initial technical issues, heats up and devolves into flamewar. Allow me to do the needful and lock it down. Feel free to open a new one and ruin it again, folks!