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Topic: X11 as a political dispute (Read 11321 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #15 –
Quote from: dpx – on
Shock/horror: Something is off-topic in Off-Topic section?

that is not the shocking part.... as I am sure a nice intelligent fellow such as yourself understands. 

I have seen forums just shift politics off the forum to a different sister forum which many of the members enjoyed  engaging in without disrupting the main forum.  It actually worked pretty well.

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #16 –
Quote from: artoo – on
Quote from: replabrobin – on
Is this sort of language just part of a new generation's views ie are all old things/ideas just to be condemned outright?




It is a kind of defamation and stigmatizing opposition for the last ~80 years, no different than calling "witch!" and pointing your finger at a random guy.
All done to avoid factual discussion.

"Neofascist" is kind of Soviet, EU and UN language. Tells more about the accuser than about the imaginary opponent.

I would ask users on the forum to please avoid opening a distro war can of worms. No one in the team is interested in that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
 

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #17 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
Quote from: clappingsnowdrop – on

The way I see it is that the debate/argument isn't the problem in of itself. It's when children posing as adults barge in but cannot handle it.

Edit: It's like giving a child a nuclear missile.


Arguing over political opinions can never resolve on internet forums and it is just not appropriate here.
That's quite the blanket statement. I think it's more nuanced. FOSS/FSF politics is still politics and I think that is a lot of people in the FOSS world align themselves with it. The only reason why it never gets resolved is because of my statement above.

Moving on from that.

Note (descriptor): When I say left I mean the extreme far left unless explicitly mentioned otherwise.

I think X11Libre is only seen as political (on the left side atleast) because the people on the left want it so.
When it's clear that on the X11Libre git readme, It explicitly denounces any political affiliation. They (the left) have a purist tribalistic stance on everything. AKA if you're not with us, you're against us. As well as being seen as a subhuman/pest.

Been following the xserver git and metux seems to just be focused on the code. He himself maybe more political in other sites but it's irrelevant to the X11Libre git repo being labeled as political.

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #18 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
I have seen forums just shift politics off the forum to a different sister forum which many of the members enjoyed  engaging in without disrupting the main forum.  It actually worked pretty well.

There are mods for that, if you don't like some topic stay out of it or use report button. Yelling 'inappropriate' often and fast is derailing every topic where you do that.

If we all start acting like hall monitors there is little discussion of value to happen, in between cycles of showing who is more righteous. Like you already heard a few times, might be a good idea to tone down and not feel obliged to post on every topic. Especially if you post only to explain how stupid some thread or post is, most likely it is not and you misunderstood what it's about.

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #19 –
Quote from: dpx – on
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
I have seen forums just shift politics off the forum to a different sister forum which many of the members enjoyed  engaging in without disrupting the main forum.  It actually worked pretty well.

There are mods for that, if you don't like some topic stay out of it or use report button. Yelling 'inappropriate' often and fast is derailing every topic where you do that.



I don't yell and I don't complain about topics being inappropriate often.  Perhaps you just seem to enjoy those topics.

However, you might have a point about the off-topic section being used as a dumping ground for arguing about politics, and other inflammatory topics.  We have a General Discussion section and Off-Topics.  So I lean to agree with you, although I would rename the section to "troll bait, character assignation  and politics"

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #20 –
Quote
I think X11Libre is only seen as political (on the left side at least) because the people on the left want it so.

The notion of left or right wing political groups being extremist is promoted by the mainstream center parties to keep in power, but we are increasingly seeing centrist extremism. The criticisms being brought up have nothing to do with left or right wing ideology and are more the values being currently pushed by the centrists, including those who are inaccurately categorized as liberals, when in fact liberal ideology is to simply let everyone believe and do whatever they want if it isn't bothering anyone else.
 The proposed bans on the right wing but significantly popular AFD in Germany by the mainstream parties is a good example of this kind of developing centrist extremism, the kind of action you would historically have expected from a far right or left government.

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #21 –
Quote from: ####### – on
Quote
I think X11Libre is only seen as political (on the left side at least) because the people on the left want it so.

The notion of left or right wing political groups being extremist is promoted by the mainstream center parties to keep in power, but we are increasingly seeing centrist extremism. The criticisms being brought up have nothing to do with left or right wing ideology and are more the values being currently pushed by the centrists, including those who are inaccurately categorized as liberals, when in fact liberal ideology is to simply let everyone believe and do whatever they want if it isn't bothering anyone else.
 The proposed bans on the right wing but significantly popular AFD in Germany by the mainstream parties is a good example of this kind of developing centrist extremism, the kind of action you would historically have expected from a far right or left government.

I think that's irrelevant; and I'd like to explore more on who those parties you speak of, but not here as that would I think deviate/derail this thread.


One only need to look at the actions of what X party has done. Which groups of people were the ones calling someone a nazi, <insert-label>-phobes, <insert-label>-ist, and other labels (such as calling someone far right) for a difference in opinion? Which groups of people were banning people in foss spaces for having different ideals even just by simply choosing to be neutral? Hyperland and now X11Libre for example. For some reason those groups of people lean only in one direction.

I refuse to call them not the extreme left as I do have some left leaning friends who are very reasonable and not get a kernel panic when they see/hear someone who has different views or even just lean slightly away from them.

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #22 –
In Linux there's a file system developed by a guy who killed his wife and nobody bats an eye, but an X server with an anti-corporate readme is neofascist (whatever that means) and shall not be used?

The hell happened in the last decade?

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #23 –
Well check out what Marx and Lenin had to say on the subject, an accusation of others being far right doesn't mean the accuser is far left when their other views definitely don't fall into this category. A simple 2 dimensional model of politics is insufficient to describe the complexities. Imagine a third dimension being added where people might occupy a position horizontally and can vary vertically thus distancing themselves from the mean while promoting what is neither a far left or right ideology to excessive levels.  :D

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #24 –
Quote from: nous – on
Quote
a group of neofascist reactionaries
Opinion discarded.
<pic>
Let's go back to this... individuum in the picture.
https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/issues/375 Seems like he tries to discredit Xlibre by its technical merit, but failed miserably to address anything of substance...

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #25 –
Quote from: Shoun2137 – on
Quote from: nous – on

Opinion discarded.
<pic>
Let's go back to this... individuum in the picture.
https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/issues/375 Seems like he tries to discredit Xlibre by its technical merit, but failed miserably to address anything of substance...
That individual simply linked a pull request that fixes a bug and called it "security bugs" (plural) without elaborating further, with nothing on the PR suggesting it's fixing a security vulnerability. But even if said person was right, introducing regression just to discover and fix them later is just a part of software development, so nothing was proven but that XLibre is being developed, and a distro developer should know it, so it strikes me as nothing more than an attempt at slander.

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #26 –
Quote from: ####### – on
Well check out what Marx and Lenin had to say on the subject, an accusation of others being far right doesn't mean the accuser is far left when their other views definitely don't fall into this category. A simple 2 dimensional model of politics is insufficient to describe the complexities. Imagine a third dimension being added where people might occupy a position horizontally and can vary vertically thus distancing themselves from the mean while promoting what is neither a far left or right ideology to excessive levels.  :D
There are two points in your statement.

The first point:
"Do your own research."/"Just google it."
Telling people to research your answer for you is not a compelling arguement. Even an RTFM with a link to a wiki section is better than this.

Second point:
"People are complex. Not everything is black and white but rather a spectrum."
It's actually a good point on the grand scheme of things. But these things are isolated. It's not that deep. Pattern recognition is not only enough to identify these types of people. In fact it works every single time. Pattern recognition is something we all have and is so good that AI and Branch Prediction is inspired from it.

Again, just look at the people besmirching on X11Libre and anyone with functioning eyes, brain, and is not being intellectually dishonest can see this.

I will move on from this because I don't think we will come to an agreement, at least not at the cost of further diverting from this thread's topic. If you want to continue, we can. Just not in this thread.


Quote from: Shoun2137 – on
Quote from: nous – on

Opinion discarded.
<pic>
Let's go back to this... individuum in the picture.
https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/issues/375 Seems like he tries to discredit Xlibre by its technical merit, but failed miserably to address anything of substance...

Quote from: Pragma Once – on
Quote from: Shoun2137 – on

Let's go back to this... individuum in the picture.
https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/issues/375 Seems like he tries to discredit Xlibre by its technical merit, but failed miserably to address anything of substance...
That individual simply linked a pull request that fixes a bug and called it "security bugs" (plural) without elaborating further, with nothing on the PR suggesting it's fixing a security vulnerability. But even if said person was right, introducing regression just to discover and fix them later is just a part of software development, so nothing was proven but that XLibre is being developed, and a distro developer should know it, so it strikes me as nothing more than an attempt at slander.

As is their modus operandi (subversion or astroturfing). Like how they try to frame metux as an incompetent developer. And yet at the same time demands this supposedly incompetent developer's 24/7 beck and call. As well as accepting metux's commits until this fiasco.

The re-development of wayback seems to just be reactionary. If X11Libre fork wasn't made I doubt this and the sudden update of xorg would have happened.

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #27 –
Quote from: ####### – on
Well check out what Marx and Lenin had to say on the subject,


Actually, have you, yourself read them?
I would be very careful with this, it would be tempting to quote Lenin or Mr Levi Marx here just to show a very repulsive, violent, deceptive ideology that has caused millions of dead and misery.
You also realize Marx was cousin of a pretty (in)famous banking dynasty that has been into private central banking?
The EU bureaucrats all hold these people dear.

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #28 –
Quote from: clappingsnowdrop – on
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on



Arguing over political opinions can never resolve on internet forums and it is just not appropriate here.
That's quite the blanket statement.

CRAP.  It is only a blanket statement to the degree that it is observed in ***ALL*** internet forums where arguing about politics NEVER resolves ANYTHING....EVER.

Nobody is ever convinced of anything.  No political outcomes ever happen because of them.  OCCASIONALLY such a forum triggers someone truly mentally ill to do a random act of violence. 

Other than that, it total fucks up the atmosphere of the forum.


The only thing it does is destroy the harmony of purpose of the forum that is being exposed to this form of poison.

Re: X11 as a political dispute

Reply #29 –
Quote from: gripped – on
Quote
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
Quote
The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.
Quote
Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.
So speaketh Eric

This Eric quote (whoever Eric is) amounts to

A) I will continue to badger you with off-topic offensive speech and character assassination, whether you like it or not. (In Brooklyn as I grew up this would get you a sock in the mouth).
B) I am righteously justified in purposefully offending you on subjects we weren't even discussing without reason or cause.
C) and I know ***ALL*** the truths... and you are all Neo-Fascist idiots for thinking otherwise.

I am sick of all this.  I am sick of the toxicity from the Left, the Right, the Middle.

This forum is about talking about software... even the __off-topic__ section is about Free Software and the Linux ecology.  Let other places carry this toxic content.  This is neutral ground for tech support and software development relating to Artix, Linux and Free Software.  Everyone should be able to come here and engage in THOSE subjects without feeling assaulted and trolled  without cause.

This thread has been skating along the edge since the XLibre project was announced.  We all KNOW that the initial fork was proceeded by a lot of mudslinging in other venues about global politics with all the character assassination, hostility, and hatred that is part and parcel of these types of digressions.  Let all that toxicity remain THERE.  Or bring it to usenet, or do what Richard did, start your own website and blog away about it until Kingdom Come.  Get yourself a youtube channel and open an X/Twitter account.  Go for it.  But keep it out of here.