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why things are changed

[flatbush ~]# pacman -S netifrc
warning: netifrc-0.6.0-1 is up to date -- reinstalling
resolving dependencies...
looking for conflicting packages...

Packages (1) netifrc-0.6.0-1

Total Installed Size:  0.36 MiB
Net Upgrade Size:      0.00 MiB

:: Proceed with installation? [Y/n] n


I saw this was updated.  What is the easiest means of finding out why something is updated?  Is there a README somewhere
or a running list of changes?

Re: why things are changed

Reply #2 –
Quote from: nous – on
We don't track whys and neither does Arch, except for security advisories. The safest bet for a changelog is each project's own page.


Thanks for reading that post as it was meant.  When you see a core package updated and then things are broken afterwards, it can be a bit distressing.  It makes me want to put something like netifrc into the do not manage tags in pacman.conf, but then there are always security issues that you don't want to me.

Another example is that cups is dependent on Ahavi.  I'm not sure why.  To me the package shouldn't be dependent unless it is absolutely necessary and all else should be options.  At some point that was updated and changed, so I removed the dependency in /etc/init.d/cups -- but yah know that on the next update, it is gonna put it back... and its getting me werry to keep fighting that.

Re: why things are changed

Reply #3 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on

Thanks for reading that post as it was meant.  When you see a core package updated and then things are broken afterwards, it can be a bit distressing.  It makes me want to put something like netifrc into the do not manage tags in pacman.conf, but then there are always security issues that you don't want to me.

Another example is that cups is dependent on Ahavi.  I'm not sure why.  To me the package shouldn't be dependent unless it is absolutely necessary and all else should be options.  At some point that was updated and changed, so I removed the dependency in /etc/init.d/cups -- but yah know that on the next update, it is gonna put it back... and its getting me werry to keep fighting that.
If you are not sure why, then why did you remove it, do the research first. Cups uses avahi for network discovery of printers. avahi is a real dependency for cups, cups is compiled against the avahi libs:
https://github.com/artix-linux/world/blob/master/cups/PKGBUILD#L13
Chris Cromer

Re: why things are changed

Reply #4 –
Quote from: cromer – on
If you are not sure why, then why did you remove it, do the research first. Cups uses avahi for network discovery of printers. avahi is a real dependency for cups, cups is compiled against the avahi libs:
https://github.com/artix-linux/world/blob/master/cups/PKGBUILD#L13


Cups doesn't need that.  I know what ahavi is and it has no usefulness other than confusing my system and expanding the attack surface.  That makes it an option, and making it s  a dependincy is wrong.    I KNOW where my printer is.  I know were ALL devices on ALL my networks are, as should anyone else who has a network.

Re: why things are changed

Reply #5 –
Code: [Select]
makedepends=('libtiff' 'libpng' 'acl' 'pam' 'xdg-utils' 'krb5' 'gnutls'
             'cups-filters' 'bc' 'colord' 'xinetd' 'gzip' 'autoconf' 'libusb' 'dbus'
             'avahi'  'hicolor-icon-theme' 'eudev' 'inetutils' 'libpaper' 'valgrind')


It also doesn't need eudev, xdg-utils, dbus, and certainly not xinietd.  Who runs cups aout fof xinet?  Now you might find some of these things useful, but that is hardly universal.

Re: why things are changed

Reply #6 –
Actually that is the point, to be universal. Just because you don't want a feature doesn't mean other people don't want it. I for one use cups with avahi. My printer is on the network, and it's just a basic printer that I bought for about 30 dollars. If it's that cheap and easy to by a network printer, then pretty much anybody might need that feature.

Cups needs all of those things, again you should research it.

Cups needs eudev for device detection, when a printer is plugged into the machine, eudev is responsible for detecting those devices.
xinetd is needed for network printers as well.
dbus is needed to communicate between all these services and programs.
xdg-utils is needed to integrate cups into the desktop. People like having access to the printers and print queues in their desktop environment.

All real requirements.
Chris Cromer

Re: why things are changed

Reply #8 –
I can see clearly that you didn't read that entire thread. Here is a quote:
Quote
after manually removing those files, CUPS stopped working, so everything is fine: Now it DOES make sense to either reinstall avahi or rebuild cups.

Because of the fact that this is a binary distro, and we want avahi to be usable for the people that want and need it, it needs to be compiled against it and linked against it.

We will not compile it without avahi because if we did that nobody would be able to use network printers.
Chris Cromer

Re: why things are changed

Reply #9 –
Quote from: cromer – on
Actually that is the point, to be universal. Just because you don't want a feature doesn't mean other people don't want it.

Universal means the largest subset that includes all other users.  So that logically means that these extra components are not dependents because they are greater than the subset of universal, and reduce their range from Universal to a subset of Universal.

Here is the issue, and this has become a personal issue in a number of forums among groups of users, for which systemd propoenent are the worst offender.... all the free desktop interdependency is NOT universally needed.  It is NOT universally useful, and those that insist that it is simply believe that because  they think __they know__ what is the best one true means of doing computing and system admin for ALL systems and ALL computers.... and this is fundamentally an error.

Aside from creating a furball of dependencies for buggy, insecure and constantly changing software, it takes a team full of people to maintain all those co-dependencies and packages, not to mention the fact that computers come in all shapes and sizes and needs, and functions.   You can't just shoehorn all users and all computers as  functionally similar to you and your needed, let alone that the needs for the human end users vary.  Additionally, none of that stuff can't be done without the hairball free desktop menagerie.  You just need root access and knowledge about your computer, and that should be encourage.  This is FREE Software.  We don't make slaves, we make empowered users who share, learn and develop.

The last thing I want is my devices to show up on the network, or worst, on the  Internet through remove services, and announce itself to desktops, and cellphones, throughout the neighborhood.  It is an old story already of printing Porn at the local church printer to be discovered by the Nuns. 

Not the printer, the X25 system that controls my lights, not the wifi, and not my USB drive. 

Additionally, printers are big security problems for viruses and malware.  HUGE.

Nah.  Don't need and it is not, regardless of its popularity, either  a wise thing to do, nor should it be encouraged.

Always reminds me of Mary Tripoletti who passed from this earth over a decade ago...  That computer has had more things stuck in it than an old whore at Times Square, with about the same result....
 
CUPS predates Ahavi by a stretch and works in unix enviroments without Bonjeur services...always had, probably always will.

Re: why things are changed

Reply #10 –
That is fine, if you don't want it. Recompile all those packages yourself for your personal system. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. But it will remain the way it is in Artix.
Chris Cromer

Re: why things are changed

Reply #11 –
Quote from: cromer – on
We will not compile it without avahi because if we did that nobody would be able to use network printers.

For over 15 YEARS+ we used network printers befor avahi.  If you want it, make it a pluggin in the config file.

Re: why things are changed

Reply #12 –
Quote from: cromer – on
That is fine, if you don't want it. Recompile all those packages yourself for your personal system. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. But it will remain the way it is in Artix.


I never expect package maintainers to take personal requests, which is why I end up compiling so many thigns.

Re: why things are changed

Reply #13 –
Arch and also artix have packages that are supposed to cover a wide range of use cases.
We cannot cater to individual needs.

As already said earlier, you are probably far better off with gentoo, instead of asking many time why XY package is not as you expect it to be.

Re: why things are changed

Reply #14 –
Quote from: cromer – on
I can see clearly that you didn't read that entire thread. Here is a quote:
Because of the fact that this is a binary distro, and we want avahi to be usable for the people that want and need it, it needs to be compiled against it and linked against it.

We will not compile it without avahi because if we did that nobody would be able to use network printers.


yeah - I read that.  I don't know what he is talking about there.  Cups is working just file.