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We them and us, whose side are you on?

Quote from: artoo – on

A slight criticism here.
Who is this "we"? seriously, this group we think is nothing I love.

"We" as a team is valid from my point of view, that is the artix dev team, not users.
A user would become part of "we" the artix team, if he contributed, maintained whatever.

simply said, I draw a line between artix team and users, and that is also necessary, frankly.

I can't help but having to agree with @artoo on this, but the reason for having to make such correction (not criticism) to @ruby must contain further explanation.  If we are to be clearly separated, we "users" with you "dev-team", and we know whether we are one or the other, what is the reason behind the explanation?

Is there a clear definition of the process under which one becomes a member of the "dev-team" if one wishes to contibute?  How, in which way, under what circumstances?  Let's say I like to become a maintainer for obmenu-generator and introduce it to the artix repositories.  Who decides on whether I will be accepted for this task or not.  I suspect amongst yourselves you have some rules on who decides.  Maybe we don't need to know until we apply.  Should we do work first and then find out the rules?  If we were to do work and it was rejected, does this prohibit anyone from using it?  No known rules.

Now we users only have the right to consume, that is what you are saying.  Why do you feel a need to make such distinction, despite of me finding it correct.  We can consume and like it and we can consume and say "bliaahh".  We can consume and advertise "wow, wait until you try this good stuff", or we can say nothing so nobody finds out how good we have it here.

The political content is that in a society of producers and consumers the distinction is always the hierarchy under which "the decision process for production takes place".  Who has the right to decide about it and who only has the right to consume or not consume.  And that is the fundamental distinction on class, not ownership (which under the current system provides the right to decide and enforce) but the ultimate unequal right to decide on production, hence consumption.

PS  In practical terms this declaration by @artoo can mean two things: 

1  "we need more developers and maintainers. either join us or shut up"
2  "we don't need anyone else to butt into our business, we make what we want and we don't need any encouragement or criticism on what it is we make".

The difference between the two has not been very clear, and @artoo may be a fine developer but his anti-social bursts of statements has never helped in clarifying anything.

As @nous has clarified before, take it or leave it.  There is a way to take, never participate in anything or mention to anyone the best kept secret, artix, and do nothing to advance the "cause", the success of artix.  If some are so naive to believe it only takes quality and work to succeed and compete in this universe, a strict system of meritocracy as some would say, I can only respond by :  "Haaah!!"   So let's finally talk of community.

Re: We them and us, whose side are you on?

Reply #1 –
Quote from: fungalnet – on


PS  In practical terms this declaration by @artoo can mean two things: 

1  "we need more developers and maintainers. either join us or shut up"
2  "we don't need anyone else to butt into our business, we make what we want and we don't need any encouragement or criticism on what it is we make".


If at all, its point 1.
I am a practical guy, I hate much talk and nothing comes out of it.
Its a general problem with our societies, this "we" group think. If you call it corporate identity or communism/collectivism/borgism through the backdoor, its the same.

As soon as some true contribution is present, lifting some weight together with the dev team, its justified to be "we" as team.
My issue was, I read, "we just need to drop the arch repos..." full stop. The user is certainly not involved in such mammoth task, I am tzalk9ing doing the actual work,  it simply needs to be done, not just talked about.

My issue with grup/herd mentality is deeper, interesting topic, but I don't wish to go into philosophical aspects here.

My question would be, why do people talk in plural if they state an opinion whatever? What about the I as in "I am"?

But to stick with the technical stuff.

We got about 1000 packages in world repo now.

Here is the still missing list for world
https://github.com/artix-linux/misc/blob/master/missing_build_deps

50 packages to go for world, and I am sure its not all, but we got at least most dev languages covered.

This is only world, galaxy is almost empty, let alone lib32.

Especially galaxy is thought to be a community/contributing effort.

Re: We them and us, whose side are you on?

Reply #2 –
Ok, I shall rephrase, since it seems we are in tune with herd mentality, how can we who have not before been devs, help if we wished to contribute?  What do we need to become proficient at before we can contribute?

I followed the keeper of the linux-ck discussion and it seemed as he quit as not willing to learn the artix dictated way.  If is is hard for someone building kernels it may be impossible for many of us who can't bundle up a desktop theme into a package.  Some of us may have to start at the "easy stuff" (font or icon package) and get to more complicated work later.

There might be the willingness to contribute and people don't know where to start, even if they know a thing or two.

Re: We them and us, whose side are you on?

Reply #3 –
There's no "artix-dictated" way, it's plain git. Artools is a set of scripts that wrap around git and make it easier and faster to commit, push and move package sources around. Unfortunately, graysky explained that he didn't have any spare time to invest, which is fine.

Joining the dev team definitely requires a certain level of technical expertise, besides the sheer intent; one should be able to use RCS tools at a basic level, know how to read and modify PKGBUILDs, have some shell scripting skills and a know-how on interpreting and fixing GCC error messages comes handy at times. A deep hatred for systemd is of the essence too, although it doesn't have to be very deep indeed. Oh, and some free time to boot.

Re: We them and us, whose side are you on?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: fungalnet – on

There might be the willingness to contribute and people don't know where to start, even if they know a thing or two.

Doesn't it depend on the specific skill or ability a contribution is based on?

If you are good with image and artwork stuff, it is welcome.
If you are able to handle bash and consequently PKGBUILD, along with git,  it is welcome.
If you can contribute a mirror,  it is welcome.

What for example donations can't buy us, is the stuff mentioned above, and these are only a few points of many what can be contributed and helped.

Re: We them and us, whose side are you on?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: artoo – on
Doesn't it depend on the specific skill or ability a contribution is based on?

Yes it does,  and artix being very stable and doing what is doing is I believe a secret that is very well kept from the masses.  So there is a certain degree of marketing.  Users, those unnecessary pests, are ambassadors of the system.  They are your best promotion.  And distrowatch, which people love to hate but always look as a hallway bulletin board, needs a plug here and there.  The reason for all this, before you react, is that there are many skilled and talented developers out there, who have not yet heard of artix, and have been trapped in doing work on "dogs with fleas".    Distributions that with the development of the sysD gang, will be put to sleep.  And this is where your work hours and skills will come from.

So be nicer to users!  That's what I am saying, and that is also political, we don't have to talk about communism and communalism to speak politically.  We have to talk about the community and how we can all fit and interact within what we have as common.  To me that is the essence of politics, how we relate to what we have in common.  You want to attach some -ism to it, call it GNUism.


Re: We them and us, whose side are you on?

Reply #6 –
When I say "we" I mean the Artix community in general, I never thought of myself as a developer, maybe a future-developer, but not a developer yet. One day I'll be tech savvy enough to contribute, but that day hasn't come.... yet. If there's anything I can do to help you guys, you just let me know. I have a few different PCs running Artix, one of which being a side-computer I can use for whatever experiments I'd like.

I like all of you. hate to see fighting.

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My issue was, I read, "we just need to drop the arch repos..." full stop. The user is certainly not involved in such mammoth task, I am tzalk9ing doing the actual work,  it simply needs to be done, not just talked about.

I'm guilty of saying this, that we need to "drop" the arch repos, but I only said that because of the incompatibility bugs I kept running into numerous times.
Perhaps having some sort of a "relay repository" is a better way to go? Like, so all those community/extra/[other arch repo here]/etc don't instantly get into everyones computers, maybe we could just move all the packages from the arch repo to an Artix repo ? Like we could have our own community/extra/etc repos that we move the files from arch repos to these other ones... That way you don't have to maintain all of those packages, you just have to move them into an Artix repo. I could probably take care of that - that doesn't sound hard! I would GLADLY help you guys move packages over if the Artix team thinks this is a good idea. Maybe there's more to it than this, maybe this wouldn't work, I don't know, I'm just trying to help in whatever ways I can.
(I tried to clarify what I mean to the best of my abilities, sorry if this is confusing, I hope you all get the jist of it)


What do you guys think of me creating a YouTube & other social media pages for Artix Linux? I Can't use Facebook or Twitter because they ban every account I make, but I can easily make a YouTube & Minds.com, maybe even gab.ai & some other pages. I would hand you guys the login/administrator privs equal to me, or above me if need be.  I will only create them if you guys want me to, I would be honoured to do so!

Re: We them and us, whose side are you on?

Reply #7 –
We already have facebook, twitter, google+, and telegram social media accounts. I don't see the need for a youtube one currently since we don't have any videos or time to make them, so for the time being I don't think it is really necessary.
Chris Cromer