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Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #30 –
Quote from: artoo – on
Yes and no. It is possible but has no benefits.
Plasma pulls wayland, but we provide x11 session, so it is up to the user if x11/xlibre or wayland.

If you really want kind of minimalist system, try gentoo, a binary distro such as artix is not really fitting your bill if you want to avoid certain components. A binary distro requires compromises, a custom tailored system based on eg gentoo does not.
Let's say hypothetically that Plasma receives statistics that >99% of concurrent users with telemetry enabled have Wayland running, so they decide to change the session type to always be Wayland in an update, or perhaps they remove functionality that will effectively prevent Plasma from running on an X server. If the dependency on Wayland were removed or made optional, this could not occur, or at the very least it would be unlikely to occur. Artix might be small and unable to move that metric by even a percentage point, but what Artix can do is set a standard that other distros may follow. Suddenly Arch is being asked why their Plasma package depends on Wayland when it's optional on Artix

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #31 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
It might be more work that the dev team cares to tackle, but in theory it should be able to be done.
Yes to the first point as Artoo and Nous clarified 2nd and 3rd posts in. Without a doubt to the second. But.....
Quote
which would imply at least theoretically, that we can remove wayland just as we have removed systemd.
A lot of users here want to use wayland though. They may be a bit miffed if it is removed.

Though I dislike Wayland as a DE personally, I also use it as Gamescope is the only solution I've found to get Elite Dangerous displaying on triple monitors.

But when I not playing that (haven't for months) there is no wayland anything running
Quote
And is that because they expect a wayland session (which implies it needs to be up and running) to be present?
Not AFAIK.

They (KDE) are getting sneaky imho. Or maybe it's just an oversight? Since the splitting of kwin the 'desktop effect' that does the virtual desktop cube thing doesn't work on X anymore. The problem is simply that
/usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin/effects/configs/kwin_cube_config.so
Also needs to be in
/usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin-x11/effects/configs
But the package it comes from kdeplasma-addons doesn't bother to include an X version.
And having two versions seems a waste of space anyway as with just a link to the wayland version it works fine on X.

Like I say maybe just an oversight ? Or maybe "No shiny toys for the Luddites" ?

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #32 –
Quote from: gripped – on
/usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin/effects/configs/kwin_cube_config.so
Also needs to be in
/usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin-x11/effects/configs
But the package it comes from kdeplasma-addons doesn't bother to include an X version.
And having two versions seems a waste of space anyway as with just a link to the wayland version it works fine on X.

Which link exactly?

ln /usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin/effects/configs/kwin_cube_config.so /usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin-x11/effects/configs/

?

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #33 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
ln /usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin/effects/configs/kwin_cube_config.so /usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin-x11/effects/configs/
Yes (though I made it a soft link)
My point is just that the X version loses a feature compared to the now default wayland version for no technical reason. The 'Hide Cursor' effect is also missing.

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #34 –
Quote from: gripped – on
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
ln /usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin/effects/configs/kwin_cube_config.so /usr/lib/qt6/plugins/kwin-x11/effects/configs/
Yes (though I made it a soft link)
My point is just that the X version loses a feature compared to the now default wayland version for no technical reason. The 'Hide Cursor' effect is also missing.


Thank you,  You might not agree with me from time to time, but I appreciate the time and effort you make to explain things thoroughly which greatly expands and improves my knowledge.  I admire and treasure the effort to expound on these details and the ad hoc and voluntary tech support  you provide for many people, making reading your posts some of the most productive and enjoyable on the forum.  You remind me of an old friend by the name of Billy Donahue.

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #35 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
Thank you,  You might not agree with me from time to time, but I appreciate the time and effort you make to explain things thoroughly which greatly expands and improves my knowledge.  I admire and treasure the effort to expound on these details and the ad hoc and voluntary tech support  you provide for many people, making reading your posts some of the most productive and enjoyable on the forum.  You remind me of an old friend by the name of Billy Donahue.
Oh bless.
I'm not the most agreeable person. Agreeableness is a bad English trait.
"Mustn’t grumble", "Keep calm and and carry on" is how we get to :
Quote
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever
More Eric.
Was Billy incredibly handsome as well?  ;) 
We're all in it together and won't always agree. 8)

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #36 –
Quote from: gripped – on
Was Billy incredibly handsome as well?  ;) 
We're all in it together and won't always agree. 8)


He still is I am sure...

https://github.com/BillyDonahue
http://images.mrbrklyn.com/installfests_barbeque/dsc01944.jpg?width=1600
http://www.nylxs.com/mp3/2002-06-16-02-NYLSRS.mp3

He is also a fan of the Clash.  Not sure of the rest of the Punks scene.
 

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #37 –
Everything is a 'session' in essence then

[edit, soz was reading page 2 and thought I was down with the kidz. cannot seem to delete, so here is stays]
HP Z640 - 72 x Intel Xeon E5-2699 v3 @ 2.30GHz, 128 GiB RAM, 4GiB + 32GiB NVIDIA

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #38 –
Quote from: Fox – on
Quote from: artoo – on
Yes and no. It is possible but has no benefits.
Plasma pulls wayland, but we provide x11 session, so it is up to the user if x11/xlibre or wayland.

If you really want kind of minimalist system, try gentoo, a binary distro such as artix is not really fitting your bill if you want to avoid certain components. A binary distro requires compromises, a custom tailored system based on eg gentoo does not.
Let's say hypothetically that Plasma receives statistics that >99% of concurrent users with telemetry enabled have Wayland running, so they decide to change the session type to always be Wayland in an update, or perhaps they remove functionality that will effectively prevent Plasma from running on an X server. If the dependency on Wayland were removed or made optional, this could not occur, or at the very least it would be unlikely to occur. Artix might be small and unable to move that metric by even a percentage point, but what Artix can do is set a standard that other distros may follow. Suddenly Arch is being asked why their Plasma package depends on Wayland when it's optional on Artix

For context, KDE's stance on X11 as of now is as follows:

X11 is in the news again, so I thought it would make sense to be clear about the Plasma team’s plans for X11 support going forward.

Current status: Plasma’s X11 session continues to be maintained.

Specifically, that means:

    We’ll make sure Plasma continues to compile and deploy on X11.
    Bug reports about the Plasma X11 session being horribly broken (for example, you can’t log in) will be fixed.
    Very bad X11-specific regressions will probably be fixed eventually.
    Less-bad X11-specific bugs will probably not be fixed unless someone pays for it.
    X11-specific features will definitely not be implemented unless someone pays for it.

Source: https://pointieststick.com/

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #39 –
Quote from: sudo_halt – on
Source: https://pointieststick.com/
Quote
At this point in time, our telemetry says that a majority of Plasma users are already using the Wayland session. Currently 73% of Plasma 6 users who have turned on telemetry are using the Wayland session, and a little over 60% of all telemetry-activating users (including Plasma 5 users) are on Wayland.
The majority of users with any sense use Xlibre/Xorg and turn off telemetry.
And they know this.

Disingenuousburger

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #40 –
Quote from: gripped – on
Quote from: sudo_halt – on
Source: https://pointieststick.com/
Quote
At this point in time, our telemetry says that a majority of Plasma users are already using the Wayland session. Currently 73% of Plasma 6 users who have turned on telemetry are using the Wayland session, and a little over 60% of all telemetry-activating users (including Plasma 5 users) are on Wayland.
The majority of users with any sense use Xlibre/Xorg and turn off telemetry.
And they know this.

Disingenuousburger

They're still supporting it regardless of telemetry, unlike e.g. GNOME (and Budgie)

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #41 –
Quote from: sudo_halt – on
They're still supporting it regardless of telemetry, unlike e.g. GNOME (and Budgie)
Yes I can read.
I was commenting on the disingenuous use of telemetry to back up the claim that the majority of plasma users are using wayland.
As Nate say's:
Quote
Most major distros have already moved their Plasma sessions to Wayland by default
So those who know no better will be using wayland.
Those who know how to switch to X11 are highly likely to also be the sort of people who also turn of the telemetry (or certainly don't turn it on).
So the telemetry is a very poor indication of anything.

Hover over my username and the telemetry will show I'm using windows 10. But I'm not.
So much for telemetry.

kdeareantiXburger

Re: Make Wayland Stay Gone

Reply #42 –
The use of volunteer telemetry as proof that they no longer need to support X is the kind of abuse of language that often comes from the free Desktop folks to lay ground work for their middleware monstrosity which controls the system and makes it hard to use or understand.  It is a proven method for them and it has been most effective.  This is why one needs to be specific when speaking of sessions and seats.

Consider this fallacy...  and abuse of language.

60% of the telemtry (which is not remotely reflective of real use cases for KDE or Plasma), supports the use of Wayland. 
Therefor, along this line of reasoning,  distros are justified in this opinion to shut out the other 40% and strip plasma bare of its X support. - this from a group of people that once criticized gnu/linux because it gives users too much choice.

This is really twisted coming from the cadre of hackers who wrote 1000s of lines of complex code to invent SEATS for a use case where multiple users who share the same CPU and GPU and I/O bus on a single computer can have separate "sessions"  which run simultaneously.  It is a use case that has nearly   zero end users, but was deemed vital,  as it did an end run around the entire tty system while needing to rewrite log in systems, PAM and device driver interfaces (hence dbus).

The Chutzpah...

None of this is about usability, or the user experience.  It is about control and self-aggrandizing ones status in life, and getting well paying jobs (at Microsoft)

I am all for well paying jobs and commercial exploitation of software....  when it adds something useful and doesn't violate a half century of OS design.