Artix Linux Forum

Move fast and break things.

Thank you for this post! Esp. appreciate the archive links, since X is so unusable ;)

Is there a Tl;DR for those w/o access to these links?
AFAIK there is a long-living fork of X by OpenBSD (if i'm not mistaken) called Xenocara. It is even packaged for Hyperbola or Parabola (don't remember which one exactly, maube even both)

#stolzmonat woke @redhat will nicht daß ich #Xorg weiter entwickle und alles auf @freedesktop gelöscht.
Release kommt trotzdem zur #Sommersonnenwende

#stolzmonat woke @redhat does not want me to develop #Xorg any further and deleted everything on @freedesktop.
Release will still be available #Sommersonnenwende

This is huge. I was really hoping that somebody will fork and continue developing X since it is still much better than wayland. It was all too obvious that they want to kill it artificially since it won't go away organically. Whole freedesktop story that I was monitoring from time to time did look a lot like systemd needless push.

When it goes public I hope we will switch to XLibre on Artix?

Unless this fork can use wayland-oriented video drivers from mesa, it'll be in trouble, unfortunately

Unless this fork can use wayland-oriented video drivers from mesa, it'll be in trouble, unfortunately

There are two possible timelines of how things played out:
- Enrico forked Xorg as XLibre and freedesktop nuked his pending merge request work, including his gitlab account.
- Freedesktop done this first and then Enrico forked XLibre

This Herbst fellow seems to be a key mesa developer...

He is also a "Freedesktop Code of Conduct Enforcement Team member". Now, they'll have to explain this ban to the public. So they'll say Mr. Weigelt most condemnably broke the Code of Conduct [by trying to maintain functional software].

Of course the dust needs to settle here a bit, but I also already hope that Artix will switch over to XLibre regardless of what Arch chooses to do. And frankly I would find it strange if Arch fought this when they so readily adopted systemd.

https://old.reddit.com/user/metux-its/
Skimming through that it seems Enrico has been not been shy calling out the issues he perceives with the direction, or lack of it, of the Xorg project and the 'moles' (as he calls them) from IBM undermining Xorg.

Every other message that he has is being "hidden" ie. you have to extend it to see it,

Wayland support seems to be progressing in the Mate desktop:
https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/developers-corner/wayland-meson/ (https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/developers-corner/wayland-meson/)
A lot of desktops are maintained and developed by freedesktop to some degree, so who will integrate this revised Xorg into those desktops?

Desktops yes, can be a problem, but I believe window managers are less exposed. Of course if GTK intentionally breaks to be wayland only then we have a real problem.

Quote from: ####### – on 06 June 2025, 16:57:48

Wayland support seems to be progressing in the Mate desktop:
https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/developers-corner/wayland-meson/ (https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/developers-corner/wayland-meson/)
A lot of desktops are maintained and developed by freedesktop to some degree, s

that shouldn't be a problem.  Desktops are like fads and come and go.  If desktops were so critical to long term success, we would all be using SunOS.

Desktops yes, can be a problem, but I believe window managers are less exposed. Of course if GTK intentionally breaks to be wayland only then we have a real problem.

Quote from: dpx – on 06 June 2025, 22:46:27

Desktops yes, can be a problem, but I believe window managers are less exposed. Of course if GTK intentionally breaks to be wayland only then we have a real problem.

What ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.  GTK aims to be a platform independent programming platform and happens to even work on Microsoft Windows.  If it stops being such, they will just stop using it and use QT or something else that works.

Of course if GTK intentionally breaks to be wayland only then we have a real problem.

Quote from: mrbrklyn – on 07 June 2025, 01:35:07

What ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.  GTK aims to be a platform independent programming platform and happens to even work on Microsoft Windows.  If it stops being such, they will just stop using it and use QT or something else that works.

Yes, but each platform has it own backend. And outside of M$ and Apple they can actually drop X support

In wayland on the other hand, drawing is done on the client side.

Sure you don't want to clarify that?

Wayland

Wayland is the newer display protocol designed to replace the X Window System. Many modern Linux distributions are using it as their default display server. It is meant to be lighter on system resources and have a smaller installation footprint than X. The project began in 2010 and is still undergoing active development, including work from active and former X.org developers.

Unlike the X Window System, there is no server instance that runs between the client and kernel. Instead, a client window works with its own code or that of a toolkit (such as Gtk+ or Qt) to provide the rendering. In order to do the rendering, a request is made to the Linux kernel via the Wayland protocol. The kernel forwards the request via the Wayland protocol to the Wayland compositor, which handles device input, window management and composition. The compositor is the part of the system that combines the rendered elements into visual output on the screen.

Most modern toolkits such Gtk+ 3 and Qt 5 have been updated to allow for rendering to either an X Window System or a computer running Wayland. Not all standalone applications have been written to support rendering in Wayland as of yet. For applications and frameworks that are still targeting the X Window System to run, the application can run within XWayland. The XWayland system is a separate X server that runs within a Wayland client and thus renders a client window’s contents within a standalone X server instance.

Just as the X Window System uses a DISPLAY environment variable to keep track of screens in use, the Wayland protocol uses a WAYLAND_DISPLAY environment variable. Below is sample output from a system running a Wayland display:

$ echo $WAYLAND_DISPLAY
wayland-0

This environment variable is not available on systems running X.

Quote from: mrbrklyn – on 07 June 2025, 08:15:34

Sure you don't want to clarify that?

I fail to follow your argument, but then that's nothing new.

That windowmaker link actually shows nicely how drawing is done thru Xlib; see appendix section 7: Xlib drawing.

As for doing it in wayland, see for example https://gaultier.github.io/blog/wayland_from_scratch.html (https://gaultier.github.io/blog/wayland_from_scratch.html)

Since we're talking about API layers here, you need to actually look at the code behind the API to draw any conclusions on dependencies. Look at the source code of GTK3, not at a programmer's reference for using GTK3.

The compositor is the part of the system that combines the rendered elements into visual output on the screen.

Quote from: mrbrklyn – on 07 June 2025, 08:15:34

Sure you don't want to clarify that?

need to actually look at the code behind the API to draw any conclusions on dependencies. Look at the source code of GTK3, not at a programmer's reference for using GTK3.

Since we're talking about API layers here, you need to actually look at the code behind the API to draw any conclusions on dependencies. Look at the source code of GTK3, not at a programmer's reference for using GTK3.

Quote from: dpx – on 06 June 2025, 11:19:28

This is huge. I was really hoping that somebody will fork and continue developing X since it is still much better than wayland. It was all too obvious that they want to kill it artificially since it won't go away organically. Whole freedesktop story that I was monitoring from time to time did look a lot like systemd needless push.

When it goes public I hope we will switch to XLibre on Artix?

Unless this fork can use wayland-oriented video drivers from mesa, it'll be in trouble, unfortunately

Quote from: dpx – on 06 June 2025, 22:46:27

Desktops yes, can be a problem, but I believe window managers are less exposed. Of course if GTK intentionally breaks to be wayland only then we have a real problem.

What ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.  ...

Quote from: phoenix_king_rus – on 06 June 2025, 11:22:55

Unless this fork can use wayland-oriented video drivers from mesa, it'll be in trouble, unfortunately

Why is that a problem?  I am just confused.  The video drivers are kernel based application and should work with anything.  I must not be understanding something.

X (through libX11) provides routines for drawing pixels and shapes on the screen. GTK uses these routines to draw its widgets when running with Xorg.

In wayland on the other hand, drawing is done on the client side.

So it's a completely different approach, requires separate segments of code for doing the actual drawing, and from a technical point of view, GTK could perfectly well drop support for one or the other. Same thing with QT.

I must not be understanding something.

Desktops yes, can be a problem, but I believe window managers are less exposed. Of course if GTK intentionally breaks to be wayland only then we have a real problem.

You expect them to BREAK GTK by purposely going out of their way and changing the code so that will not function on X

Matthias Clasen @matthiasc 2 years ago
When we discussed this issue at a recent gtk planning call, the outcome was:

    We should stop building the X11 backend by default in GTK 5
    As long as we aren't doing any major GDK refactorings, keeping it around in its current state does not cost us much

Quote from: lotuskip – on 07 June 2025, 07:59:08

In wayland on the other hand, drawing is done on the client side.

Sure you don't want to clarify that?

As for your personal comment.... if you have something personal to say, save it for email.  I have publicly available email and  phone numbers.  I will only say that comparing THIS CONVERSATION with people posting Nazi rants and political discussions outside of tech... is disingenuous .  We are still on the topic here.

I fail to follow your argument, but then that's nothing new.

Both window managers and GUI widget/toolkit libraries have to be specifically coded to support both X and wayland (and windows or anything else).
I don't think it was suggested that X support would be removed from pre-existing code. 'Sabotage' as you put it. It would be pointless as anyone could just fork the code and revert the changes.

However it's entirely possible that GTK 5 and/or QT 7 could drop support for X.
They won't just magically work on X unless support is specifically included.

Quote from: gripped – on 07 June 2025, 12:48:28

Both window managers and GUI widget/toolkit libraries have to be specifically coded to support both X and wayland (and windows or anything else).
I don't think it was suggested that X support would be removed from pre-existing code. 'Sabotage' as you put it. It would be pointless as anyone could just fork the code and revert the changes.

However it's entirely possible that GTK 5 and/or QT 7 could drop support for X.
They won't just magically work on X unless support is specifically included.

This. If GTK 5 drops X support (or keeps it around, disabled and leaves it to rot), my favorite xyz application will work with GTK 3 or 4 while I can compile it that way. If it starts requiring GTK 5 then I must try compiling GTK 5 with X support, which can break at any moment since it may be entirely unmaintained.

User facing API and its stability have nothing to do with if GTK <version> can be used on X.

Quote from: dpx – on 07 June 2025, 13:15:26

This. If GTK 5 drops X support (or keeps it around, disabled and leaves it to rot), my favorite xyz application will work with GTK 3 or 4 while I can compile it that way. If it starts requiring GTK 5 then I must try compiling GTK 5 with X support, which can break at any moment since it may be entirely unmaintained.
User facing API and its stability have nothing to do with if GTK <version> can be used on X.

GTK5 is vaporware.

Quote from: mrbrklyn – on 07 June 2025, 10:29:53

Seemed like a valid point to me...

No it is not.  It was a personnel attack, and there was no shouting.

Quote

Everything in the window is drawn client side under wayland.
The titlebar, buttons and borders vary depending on the window manager you are using. Some do it client side. Some have the compositor handle it.

That is not the difference.  The difference is the end of the Client/Server and the end of the modular design of X.
In X the client is also drawing the windows.  Obviously, a remote X server can not send images to a client screen as that requires access to the GPU hardware...   Xlib is a CLIENT library

The data that controls the basics of the imagining the libX is contained and controlled by the Server.  That is the part that ticks off those that want X to die.  The rendering itself, strangely enough is local where the client is where it talks to the Kernel and Talks to the GPU.   The server says to the Client - Draw a Box and the Client, with the help of a variety of client libraries (like the DM and a compositor),  draws a box.  

Wayland stuffs everything into the compositor... which is why in the other thread simple IPC is problematic even after 16 years.

  https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Xlib_and_XCB_in_the_X_Window_System_graphics_stack.svg


Historically, FWIW, we alway talk about the Server and Client in reverse in X11. 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/X11_display_server_protocol.svg

I remote program is run by a local X Server and displayed locally where it controls events (I/O etc)

So you connect remotely to a big server with ssh with X protocols on ssh -X and then run xterm.  An xterm, which is a client program on a remote machine, is displayed by your X server on your screen by local libX libraries that are local clients to your Xserver.

reversely, you can connect to a remote XServer and using the Display variable tell that remote client to display programs on the remote client using the remote libX library

All of this has been removed by Wayland.  They see no usecase... DESPITE the wide use of VNC, remote desktop protocols in Chome, and the increasing numbers of Chrombook clients and JSom Aps from phones using remote protocols to store your data in their DMCA protected remote applications... effectely stuffing X11 capability into the web browser and javascript aps.


As for the links to GTK5 - it is ALL vaporware.  I'll be dead before any decisions about it are made, but this X fork is all about those pushing for the death of X  and proposing the futre of GTK without X, which is not a fact at all.  It is not "news" that GTK API's can be written to Wayland.  They can be written to ANYTHING as long at the API is not broken.... of OS-2 Warp or BeOS.

Instead of killing X, it should had been the focus on intense development of remote  protocols to include IPSEC and Crypto and to speed up remote client/server over TCP/IP communications.

BTW - Just for fun, you can fun X programs in a browser with Broadway
https://docs.gtk.org/gtk3/broadway.html


X is so far more advanced than anything Wayland has even proposed that Broadway!!  was developed in 1996!!
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/x-faq/part3/section-23.html

Broadway, under development at the X Consortium in 1996, is a package of
technologies designed to provide what is termed "universal access to
interactive applications on the Web" -- the ability to locate and invoke
remote applications via the Web and have their displays, including both
graphics and audio, appear wherever you are (on your local desktop), either
as new top-level windows or embedded within your Web browser.


Lastly on the GTK5 issue:

From LWN

Quote

Matthias Clasen has written a short update on a GTK hackfest that took place at FOSDEM and what's coming in GTK 4.18. This includes fixes for pointer sizes in Wayland when fractional scaling is enabled, removal of the old GL renderer in favor of the GL renderer introduced in GTK 4.13.6, and deprecation of X11 and Broadway backends with intent to remove them in GTK 5.

The deprecated backends will remain available until then, and no action is required by developers at this time, Clasen wrote: ""There is no need to act on deprecations until you are actively porting your app to the next major version of GTK, which is not on the horizon yet"".

In other words it is pompous posturing about the far future for GTK in a future when the Desktop itself is a disappearing technology.  They are going to have their hands full of adopting to mobile devices using AI that are voice activated for the majority of functions with crippled and limited touch screen interfaces.

Quote from: gripped – on 07 June 2025, 12:48:28

User facing API and its stability have nothing to do with if GTK <version> can be used on X.

From the perspective that you explained, yes that is true.  That is just one possible future route.  What I am saying is that there is a very large X user base that would be willing to just fork GTK5 to allow for it to work on X ***or*** it might well just be not relevant in 2035, long after I am dead and when you can expect to see GTK5 because the hardware and underlining Human Interface Design is changing so fast.  A Mouse, Screen and Keyboard... how quaint of an idea that will be.

No it is not.  It was a personnel attack, and there was no shouting.

So a modicum of common sense in keeping X support in the code but distros would have to actively enable it or users would have to build their own. But the long term trajectory seems fairly clear.


There is a very real sentiment among some that "X needs to die". They seem to see it as an affront that it still exists and will lobby to undermine its support where they can. imho.

Here is the main issue... they said that about systemd.... and I still haven't complied with the hive mind.

That is not wayland and X11 is going nowhere.

From the perspective that you explained, yes that is true.  That is just one possible future route.  What I am saying is that there is a very large X user base that would be willing to just fork GTK5 to allow for it to work on X ***or*** it might well just be not relevant in 2035, long after I am dead and when you can expect to see GTK5 because the hardware and underlining Human Interface Design is changing so fast.  A Mouse, Screen and Keyboard... how quaint of an idea that will be.

I'm going to be charitable and believe that you felt overall frustration and just channelled it at the wrong person who was making a perfectly reasonable point.

Quote from: dpx – on 06 June 2025, 22:46:27

Of course if GTK intentionally breaks to be wayland only then we have a real problem.

Actually you can have wayland compositor running on top of X as a window. So, if you REALLY need something sucky which has wayland as its requirement, you can still run it with some overhead without switching core.

Source are from "Tech Voldemort":
https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1930727192964514137 (archive: https://archive.is/Jvhit)

Which spiralled into Enrico getting banned and nuked from freedesktop:
https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1930772101985935578 (archive: https://archive.is/gCjQe)

freedesktop being a villain of the story:
https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1930811054520443215 (archive: https://archive.is/1Gy84)
https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1930797938705568127 (archive: https://archive.is/4nlja)
https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1930806994601918957 (archive: https://archive.is/kLcpU)

Reaction of Hyprland developer, Vaxry:
https://xcancel.com/vaxryy/status/1930878734166270304 (archive: https://archive.is/e7KRQ)
https://xcancel.com/vaxryy/status/1930888924110475461 (archive: https://archive.is/VPln5)


The repo to the new "XLibre" fork is here:
https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/tree/xlibre/prepare

freedesktop (at the very least GNOME, Redhat, canonical and microsoft part of it) has certain corporate bias and agenda.
I always felt the "push" for Wayland was never as organic as it seems and stuff like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/hqTBelm.png)

This absolutely does not paint Freedesktop and Red Hat in a positive light.
Story is still developing, but I'm curious of the outcome so that's why I posted it here.

Quote from: phoenix_king_rus – on 07 June 2025, 07:02:57

Actually you can have wayland compositor running on top of X as a window. So, if you REALLY need something sucky which has wayland as its requirement, you can still run it with some overhead without switching core.

Actually, that is not a bad idea and I am not sure how much different that is than what we are already doing?

Quote from: mrbrklyn – on 07 June 2025, 18:50:54

Actually, that is not a bad idea and I am not sure how much different that is than what we are already doing?

You get a separate window containing one or more gtk5 apps. Like having a window manager inside window manager

There was a lot of effort on hacker's news to undermine this fork, so I am inclined to think that Enrico Weigelt may be onto something.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199502

Offtopic:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: clappingsnowdrop – on 08 June 2025, 00:19:54

[...]
Also "Tech Voldemort" you're funny.  ;D

Well, on "that" other side any mention of him gets you banned.
Oh, and also Lunduke himself joked about that, it's also in that tone, so. ;f

The xlibre-server package has been updated with the fix for the startup problem with Qt programs.

Quote from: Artist – on 10 June 2025, 13:19:11

The xlibre-server package has been updated with the fix for the startup problem with Qt programs.

Am I missing where this should be or is it still internal? I would like to be a guinea pig.

Quote from: mrbrklyn – on 07 June 2025, 17:36:13

From the perspective that you explained, yes that is true.  That is just one possible future route.  What I am saying is that there is a very large X user base that would be willing to just fork GTK5 to allow for it to work on X ***or*** it might well just be not relevant in 2035, long after I am dead and when you can expect to see GTK5 because the hardware and underlining Human Interface Design is changing so fast.  A Mouse, Screen and Keyboard... how quaint of an idea that will be.

If you read what I said before in this thread you may see that I also hope people to fork when needed and expect X to exist long after you are dead. But I also remember how quickly systemd was adopted almost everywhere after corporate started to push, and would rather consider options and possible action rather than counting on hope.

You can't deny it is getting increasingly harder to remove all traces of wayland, like you noticed in another thread. I don't like it one bit but I would rather know my options if and before lock in gets firmer.

Of course I am talking about one possible route and only in my name, how else it can be?

Modesetting driver here finally got TearFree option.
And it's enabled by default.  ;)

I'm using dwm with startx.

Gee I wonder, where is this lack of confidence that Enrico simply is not capable of going through alone, because there's actually nothing of note if we were to backtrack to the previous articles about Enrico.

We absolutely don't need corporate backing to have a fucking functional software. Hyprland is the main example of this, but this argument was just a smokescreen.

Quote from: Shoun2137 – on 16 June 2025, 04:28:52

We absolutely don't need corporate backing to have a fucking functional software. Hyprland is the main example of this, but this argument was just a smokescreen.

That's bad example IMO. You could as well name any suckless project with same success (actually, if you name sbase, it would have more weight since it had actual use in chromeos).
Really successfull widely used examples are curl and ffmpeg

https://archive.is/yq8C8 - The Latest X.Org Server Activity Are A Lot Of Code Reverts

New developments, the hitpiece of/by Moronix (by Michael of Phoronix)!

It seems that attacks were not enough, Enrico showed that he'll actually continue working on this, so as of now aligned interests of corporate linux ecosystem must've changed their tactics, because this article isn't just a report, about "removing/revert bad quality code", oh no, it's direct smear campaign and it's written like a 70s communist propaganda piece, but let's move back a bit, let's address the one main argument our Moronix article author is actually "concerned" about:

Many Phoronix readers have been asking why I haven't been covering news of the "X11Libre" fork of the X.Org Server or if I somehow missed it... No, simply a vote of no confidence. It's highly unlikely to succeed long-term given the very limited experienced developers / resources and none of the major Linux stakeholders (companies) backing it.

We absolutely don't need corporate backing to have a fucking functional software. Hyprland is the main example of this, but this argument was just a smokescreen. He's also had no confidence about Enrico actually delivering (or at least trying to), but let's turn back a little bit

https://archive.is/lKVGF - 13 June 2024 at 09:51 AM - Positive report, marking that Enrico is building his automated testing suite
https://archive.is/zS2bY - 22 July 2024 at 12:11 PM - Positive report, to the point of almost glazing Enrico with this line: Open-source developer Enrico Weigelt has in recent months taken to near single-handedly maintain and further enhance the aging X.Org Server codebase
https://archive.ph/4SG1t - 1 January 2025 at 11:53 AM - Neutral report, about Enrico being one of the notable people around progress of X.Org...

Gee I wonder, where is this lack of confidence that Enrico simply is not capable of going through alone, because there's actually nothing of note if we were to backtrack to the previous articles about Enrico.

About Freedesktop removing the commits... It's just pathetic. Imagine Enrico's work merged throughout almost 2 years, which surely mustve been checked, approved and upstream with maintai.. I'm sorry, repo gatekeepers full intent at that time that it was actually functional and good, as for the copyright and ownership, it was almost 2 YEARS of shit being STALE, and I think that if some one of those RH fuckers asked Enrico, this could've been resolved amicably. Do you really think they care about that? Nope. It's clear that the code is not "bad" per se, it's just that they've deemed Enrico as persona non grata, and everything that he did needs to go.

As for the so-called breakage, https://archive.is/absTh#note_2801285 - It's clear that they've wanted to get rid of him, but they wanted to do it with the angle of Enrico being incompetent, but take a look here, the entire fucking randr saga is shitshow meant to paint him in bad light, but they didn't think that there were actually people defending him.

Take what you want, but to me, the intent was clear - Make his fork and effort less palatable for normies, that don't know nuances of the whole story...

I'm sorry, but I'm going a bit more nuclear on Michael's behaviour here, so as this is just my own 2 cents so I'm marking this as offtopic:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Michael actually doesn't think, he's actually posting what he thinks he's allowed to think, because god forbid, he'll say something as spicy as Lunduke in one of his articles and most of his corporate contacts will disappear, along with all the hardware/corporate support that's being donated/lend for testing behind the scenes... As for his programming ability, His benchmark suite is subpar at best, that you have to manually adjust before running anything, it's as if it was written by someone else and He's just trying to make it work... As for reporting, He doesn't even read properly the code that's he's reporting on, he's mostly parrotting the people behind that actually trying to for example put a cohesive message about the functionality on a mailing list, and it shows, because Michael tries to condense those messages and it doesn't work, there are always people are correcting him in the comments, it's actually shocking that he's got an audience this big to slip so much mistakes throughout the years and years of him going sometimes absolutely wrong to the point of the article being taken of the website and then posted again like it's nothing. There's clear GNOME + Wayland bias in reporting, but that's normal these days, even if GNOME is irrelevant as DE at large, it just brings clicks.

Well, this article broke the camels straw, because it clearly shows the bias, he was asked to write something like that and he stalled for time, but was probably pressed about it by the Freedesktop and RH psychos...

If this post was too aggressive, moderators can remove it, I specifically wanted to say everything without censoring myself...

They can cry all they want, but if he was such a bad and incompetent programmer then why accept his commits in the first place.

the truth is, all this gossip is useless.  Lets just move forward with libreX and be happy to have a new tool at our disposal.  Let the spitballs fly elsewhere.

BTW - Linus was a virtually incompetent coder when he began.  Linux is a ***social*** movement, not a technological one.

Feedback about what works with XLibre and what does not is welcome, and please add if the same works with xorg or not.

The issues may start propping up more once the code cleanup is done and/or once he starts pushing breaking changes.
For clarity, should this be in a separate thread?

One day soon they will complain the kernel runs as root.  The solution to running X as root is to make sure X is secure and proper use of SUID

Feedback about what works with XLibre and what does not is welcome, and please add if the same works with xorg or not.

Decent article about this:
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xlibre.html

even though there isn't a product for me to use, just yet.

Quote from: clappingsnowdrop – on 17 June 2025, 13:37:15

The issues may start propping up more once the code cleanup is done and/or once he starts pushing breaking changes.
For clarity, should this be in a separate thread?

A lot of cleanup, fixing and enhancing has already been performed and test.ed

I intend to create a separate thread once we move from staging to testing, and also clarify more then.

artist

Nvidia:
Some commit have been done of which the latest is:
https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/commit/fa7cc111e71c46dabae24c6a60fcbb3b21f270cc:
this is specifically for NVidia proprietary driver: they're again lagging
behind a year, doing at least some minimal cleanup of their code base.
All attempts to get in direct contact with them have failed.

The solution to running X as root is to make sure X is secure and proper use of SUID

So far no issues with Xlibre itself. I can't use the programs I like to use, but it's only foot terminal and yambar. I prefer those, but that's for another thread.

Quote from: mrbrklyn – on 17 June 2025, 13:25:01

The solution to running X as root is to make sure X is secure and proper use of SUID

What the hell are you talking about? This doesn't have anything to do with anything. It's possible to run Xorg rootless (It's pure Xorg, not Xlibre...) right now without any problem:

It will go in a blank black page of which is frozen (I cannot change tty) so I have no choice but to restart.
Note: I while I cannot change tty and is stuck with the black blank screen, the soft-restart ctrl-alt-del combo still works.

Edit: other packages I have installed from Xlibre are xlibre-xf86-input-libinput and xlibre-xf86-video-amdgpu. Maybe it's xlibre-xf86-video-amdgpu that needs updating. As currently in dwl (wayland) xwayland seems to run fine (tested by launching steam and suckless terminal).

Quote from: clappingsnowdrop – on 18 June 2025, 02:00:57

It will go in a blank black page of which is frozen (I cannot change tty) so I have no choice but to restart.
Note: I while I cannot change tty and is stuck with the black blank screen, the soft-restart ctrl-alt-del combo still works.

Edit: other packages I have installed from Xlibre are xlibre-xf86-input-libinput and xlibre-xf86-video-amdgpu. Maybe it's xlibre-xf86-video-amdgpu that needs updating. As currently in dwl (wayland) xwayland seems to run fine (tested by launching steam and suckless terminal).

Reinstall the xlibre-xf86-video-amdgpu package (or upgrade). I had the same issue and after some debugging in the IRC, it was discovered that it did need a rebuild.

- some xlibre-xf86 will not be updated as their previous versions waere too high; if pacman -Q | grep 'xlibre-xf86' shows packages that have a git release number (like ...r12345.g.67890) these must be reinstalled manually to force them to be 'downgraded'.

Shouldn't -Suu pacman flag fix it?

Fedora linux current proposal: "Replace the X.Org X11 Xserver (xorg-x11-xserver) with the X11Libre (XLibre) Xserver, an actively maintained fork."

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/X11Libre

I mean beyond funny. If it gets accepted it will in time find it's way into Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Hard to imagine happening but maybe we are at reality-weirder-than-fiction moment.

We can both kill Xorg and keep it alive better than you!

Quote from: nous – on 24 June 2025, 11:55:48

We can both kill Xorg and keep it alive better than you!

the maliciousness is just so uncalled for and a TOTAL waste of time.  Just fork it and put it all in the rearview mirror, if you have the talent and you want to do this.  I think artix is doing a fair job on this and I am a bit surprised we didn't get any press thus far on the efforts by Artist to just make a working libreX version. 

It take 40 years of head banging but it is just not needed to turn your insides upside down for this bullshit.

There are real wars and suffering going on in the world.  Why add to ones suffering over a stupid piece of software when the solution is at hand and the bluster is meaningless in the real world.

On that note, I have to go vote for NYC Mayor... I have a choice between a delusional homicidal maniac  and a candidate that wants me dead for theological reasons.  The joys of living.

We can both kill Xorg and keep it alive better than you!
https://forum.artixlinux.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8229.0;attach=3760;image

[...]
I find somewhat funny that contradiction.
https://forum.artixlinux.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=3762;image

Quote from: mrbrklyn – on 24 June 2025, 12:01:00

the maliciousness is just so uncalled for and a TOTAL waste of time.  Just fork it and put it all in the rearview mirror, if you have the talent and you want to do this.  I think artix is doing a fair job on this and I am a bit surprised we didn't get any press thus far on the efforts by Artist to just make a working libreX version. 

It take 40 years of head banging but it is just not needed to turn your insides upside down for this bullshit.

There are real wars and suffering going on in the world.  Why add to ones suffering over a stupid piece of software when the solution is at hand and the bluster is meaningless in the real world.

On that note, I have to go vote for NYC Mayor... I have a choice between a delusional homicidal maniac  and a candidate that wants me dead for theological reasons.  The joys of living.

Then a lot of threads in the forum are a TOTAL waste of time why are you replying?

Cannot wait to finally try it out on a live system... Will give it some time to rough out the edges. I'm liking it a lot already with the author being completely anti-DEI and pro-meritocracy. That's what software should be about.

I just want to nip this in the bud before we go through another round of mud slinging.  It is enough that we are getting a solid and maintained piece of free software.  Lets leave the ancillary politics out of this.

Quote from: mrbrklyn – on 03 July 2025, 11:36:15

I just want to nip this in the bud before we go through another round of mud slinging.  It is enough that we are getting a solid and maintained piece of free software.  Lets leave the ancillary politics out of this.

This is not the first time a new users 'first post' has gone downhill like this. Someone is trolling the forum.