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Topic: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing... (Read 14658 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #45 –
Quote from: dpx – on
Quote from: gripped – on
User facing API and its stability have nothing to do with if GTK <version> can be used on X.


From the perspective that you explained, yes that is true.  That is just one possible future route.  What I am saying is that there is a very large X user base that would be willing to just fork GTK5 to allow for it to work on X ***or*** it might well just be not relevant in 2035, long after I am dead and when you can expect to see GTK5 because the hardware and underlining Human Interface Design is changing so fast.  A Mouse, Screen and Keyboard... how quaint of an idea that will be.

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #46 –
In for a penny in for a pound...
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
No it is not.  It was a personnel attack, and there was no shouting.
Stating "I fail to follow your argument, but then that's nothing new." is not a personal attack.
It's a statement.
I also frequently fail to follow your argument.

Writing in ALL CAPS is considered SHOUTING.
It's uncalled for when someone simply gives their opinion on how it could be if future versions of GUI toolkits drop support for X.
"What ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. "
That's rude.

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #47 –
Quote from: gripped – on

So a modicum of common sense in keeping X support in the code but distros would have to actively enable it or users would have to build their own. But the long term trajectory seems fairly clear.


There is a very real sentiment among some that "X needs to die". They seem to see it as an affront that it still exists and will lobby to undermine its support where they can. imho.


Here is the main issue... they said that about systemd.... and I still haven't complied with the hive mind.

When they make something network aware, and secure, I'm on board.  That is not wayland and X11 is going nowhere.  Long after GTK is on the scrap heap, I expect it to still be alive and serving people essential services.... Hence this inevitable fork.  JSOM is the threat to X11, not GTK.

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #48 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
Here is the main issue... they said that about systemd.... and I still haven't complied with the hive mind.
Good. Neither have most of us. That's why we are here.
Quote
That is not wayland and X11 is going nowhere.
I share that belief.

I'm going to be charitable and believe that you felt overall frustration and just channelled it at the wrong person who was making a perfectly reasonable point.

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #49 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
From the perspective that you explained, yes that is true.  That is just one possible future route.  What I am saying is that there is a very large X user base that would be willing to just fork GTK5 to allow for it to work on X ***or*** it might well just be not relevant in 2035, long after I am dead and when you can expect to see GTK5 because the hardware and underlining Human Interface Design is changing so fast.  A Mouse, Screen and Keyboard... how quaint of an idea that will be.

If you read what I said before in this thread you may see that I also hope people to fork when needed and expect X to exist long after you are dead. But I also remember how quickly systemd was adopted almost everywhere after corporate started to push, and would rather consider options and possible action rather than counting on hope.

You can't deny it is getting increasingly harder to remove all traces of wayland, like you noticed in another thread. I don't like it one bit but I would rather know my options if and before lock in gets firmer.

Of course I am talking about one possible route and only in my name, how else it can be?

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #50 –
Quote from: gripped – on
I'm going to be charitable and believe that you felt overall frustration and just channelled it at the wrong person who was making a perfectly reasonable point.

What happened was my  words of protest that I used when a troll hijacked a previous thread to vent their politics and caused the thread  to be locked down were used by a poster here against me.  This thread has not been dragged off topic and we have not ventured into politics.  It has been on topic.  So it was personal, and it was intended to be insulting.   It is okay. 

I'm a bigger man than Jane Curtain and I this is the last I will say on this.

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #51 –
Quote from: phoenix_king_rus – on
Quote from: dpx – on
Of course if GTK intentionally breaks to be wayland only then we have a real problem.
Actually you can have wayland compositor running on top of X as a window. So, if you REALLY need something sucky which has wayland as its requirement, you can still run it with some overhead without switching core.


Actually, that is not a bad idea and I am not sure how much different that is than what we are already doing?
 

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #52 –
Quote from: Shoun2137 – on
Source are from "Tech Voldemort":
https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1930727192964514137 (archive: https://archive.is/Jvhit)

Which spiralled into Enrico getting banned and nuked from freedesktop:
https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1930772101985935578 (archive: https://archive.is/gCjQe)

freedesktop being a villain of the story:
https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1930811054520443215 (archive: https://archive.is/1Gy84)
https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1930797938705568127 (archive: https://archive.is/4nlja)
https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1930806994601918957 (archive: https://archive.is/kLcpU)

Reaction of Hyprland developer, Vaxry:
https://xcancel.com/vaxryy/status/1930878734166270304 (archive: https://archive.is/e7KRQ)
https://xcancel.com/vaxryy/status/1930888924110475461 (archive: https://archive.is/VPln5)


The repo to the new "XLibre" fork is here:
https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/tree/xlibre/prepare

freedesktop (at the very least GNOME, Redhat, canonical and microsoft part of it) has certain corporate bias and agenda.
I always felt the "push" for Wayland was never as organic as it seems and stuff like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This absolutely does not paint Freedesktop and Red Hat in a positive light.
Story is still developing, but I'm curious of the outcome so that's why I posted it here.

This is good news! As someone who is more neutral on the manner (might be leaning more on Wayland because Xorg freezes my pc (I think I figured out more of the issue, but not fully. I still am testing it. Will post it if I experience no crash for a month)).

I hope this fork does blow up and get massive development.

This does 2 things: make the experience for the Xorg enjoyers better and might speed up Wayland development. Competition is always good.

About freedesktop doing up to some shenanigans again. I think It's safe to say we need a new group or organization for that. Everytime I hear their group (mainly gnome) being mentioned it's always them doing something not-so-great or having friction with non-gnome developers.

Also "Tech Voldemort" you're funny.  ;D

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #53 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on
Quote from: phoenix_king_rus – on

Actually you can have wayland compositor running on top of X as a window. So, if you REALLY need something sucky which has wayland as its requirement, you can still run it with some overhead without switching core.


Actually, that is not a bad idea and I am not sure how much different that is than what we are already doing?
You get a separate window containing one or more gtk5 apps. Like having a window manager inside window manager
ARMtix
If you need to contact me, use email

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #54 –
Quote from: phoenix_king_rus – on
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on



Actually, that is not a bad idea and I am not sure how much different that is than what we are already doing?
You get a separate window containing one or more gtk5 apps. Like having a window manager inside window manager


a flatpack.

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #55 –
Offtopic:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #56 –
There was a lot of effort on hacker's news to undermine this fork, so I am inclined to think that Enrico Weigelt may be onto something.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199502

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #57 –
Quote from: dpx – on
There was a lot of effort on hacker's news to undermine this fork, so I am inclined to think that Enrico Weigelt may be onto something.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199502
I always laugh at people thinking that those "small housekeeping commits never meant anything in the grand scheme of things" and that "the codebase is too big and too complicated, his effort alone won't make a difference!". What they can't understand is that you have to start somewhere, and with the codebase being completely neglected thanks to freedesktop gatekeeping the upstream, it was only a matter of time before a fork popped up. As for effort and manpower, I personally know people who wanted to contribute but got shutdown by the ridiculous humiliation ritual you have to go through just to get code upstream.

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #58 –
Quote from: Shoun2137 – on
Offtopic:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Oh okay, fits him well these days  ;D. Best to ignore "that" side. Not like they can be reasoned with anyway.

Curious what will the DE developers (although I have very low expectations for gnome/freedesktop to actually work together with this) and other distros do about this. The BSDs will probably pick it up.

I'm curious (and maybe a bit excited) to see where this goes.

Re: X.Org is being forked, huge drama brewing...

Reply #59 –
The xlibre-server package has been updated with the fix for the startup problem with Qt programs. It also allows a Cinnamon desktop to startup correctly.

It is still meant for experimenting on eg VMs without internet connection.

artist