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Topic: [openrc][runit] update (Read 19537 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #30 –
Stable is just as stable as Arch is. The last actual issue was when icu was accidentally pushed too soon and broke pacman, but that was many many months ago. The init stuff is naturally more tricky business (hence why it requires some manual intervention), but I like the idea of providing a common base for all the possible init systems to work off of.

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #31 –
After using the Artix live DVD to chroot my system, I was (after a great deal of time and effort) able to get my system working again.  I copied the /sbin/init directory from the live disk to my hard drive.  After that, I tried to reinstall openrc via pacman, but got errors about conflicting files with runit, which was never installed on my system.  I finally had to force the openrc reinstall and ran a full system update.  After doing that, I was able to boot from the hard drive, but I wasn't able to get to the graphical login.  The startx command gave error messages that no screen was found.  That may have come from one of the updates when I did the full update.  I tried to boot off of the basic kernel instead of the lts one, and it worked.

While I'm happy to have my system working again, I do think that you guys need to decide what your goal is with Artix.  Do you want it to be a user-friendly Arch-based system without systemd, or an experimental distro for trying different systemd alternatives?  I understand that your resources are limited; that's why I think you ought to prioritize your efforts.  If you want to be the user-friendly Arch alternative without systemd, you need to pick one init application and focus your effort into making that the stable flagship of your offerings.  Once that's done, you can introduce other init approaches.  If you want to be an experimental disto, then state that up front so that less savvy users won't waste their time with it.

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #32 –
I'd say Artix is about as user friendly as Arch which is probably equal to "not very." People should know their way around a linux system and not be afraid of a command line. I've said it before, but I'm honestly surprised there's even a graphical installer in the first place (personally, I would rather just do it in cli). Not that the distro is super hard or anything, stuff like Gentoo is way more time consuming, but they're definitely not aiming for a seamless, ubuntu-like experience.

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #33 –
Quote from: DAH – on
If you want to be the user-friendly Arch alternative without systemd,

We, as the artix team, never ever stated that we are aiming to be yet another manjaro, we don't, and we said this from the beginning.
If you expect a user friendly distro, that is actually your misconception.

"user freindly" depends on the definition. If you expect a click and point approach, no terminal usage, , then you expect wrong and windows is the OS you really want.

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #34 –
my 2c is that Artix has been very very stable, despite of the warnings it is not for newbies.  I'll have to give the "team" this.
Things seem to have coincided, such as runit development, the primary mirror being exchanged for a new one, new mirrors being added, mirrors taking to long to resynchronize and some of them losing the ability to, and a suspected rush to get new isos out "with" runit as well as with OpenRC.   I suspect with all the mirror turmoil the past 2 weeks installing with January's isos you are lost as how to get any upgrades, where to find the new mirrors that work, etc.

The problem is not whether facing temporary unforseen issues is adequately confronted but the "trend" of the team working silently in the backroom, maybe for 36straight with out breaks, but not adequately alarming users before things fall apart.  Being locked out of your system without a word for days is not nice, no matter who you are.  Not knowing what may have caused it and get no clues is a problem.  Upgrading something that came through a repository and being locked and be blamed after the fact as your fault for upgrading, is a problem.

I suspect due to my own ordeal that your conflicts of openrc with runit came from artix-sysvcompat and some rogue version of it lying around in some repository that didn't sync on time with the rest to prevent you from installing it. 

That is what makes @artoo's repeated unfriendly advise totally uncalled for.  Which is a contradiction to what I am saying.  Some members of the team may be the gods of coding but not very good in communicating what they have done to users.  I don't know where the balance is.  @artoo's remarks are definitely NOT what I call being alarmed of changes ahead of them appearing in repositories.

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #35 –
Is there a plan/schedule to update the installation media accordingly?

I mean no offense, but the "base" medium (so called "rolling") has not been updated for more than half a year. Considering all the discussed changes, and also issues that this particular medium brings (missing the "nobody" user, missing the SSH server etc.), I trust I am not the only one who would appreciate a bit of an update here. Sure, the LXQT was updated lately, and would most probably be appreciated by newbies and the likes. But considering the many times spoken fact that this distribution is not for total newbies (again, no offense), I am more than happy with a minimalist wizard-less installation media (KISS?), as long as it is working and somewhat up to date.

Thanks and cheers!

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #36 –
Quote from: matro – on
Is there a plan/schedule to update the installation media accordingly?

I mean no offense, but the "base" medium (so called "rolling") has not been updated for more than half a year. Considering all the discussed changes, and also issues that this particular medium brings (missing the "nobody" user, missing the SSH server etc.), I trust I am not the only one who would appreciate a bit of an update here. Sure, the LXQT was updated lately, and would most probably be appreciated by newbies and the likes. But considering the many times spoken fact that this distribution is not for total newbies (again, no offense), I am more than happy with a minimalist wizard-less installation media (KISS?), as long as it is working and somewhat up to date.

Thanks and cheers!
Yes, new isos are going to be generated once we have the new runit and openrc stuff ready.
Chris Cromer

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #37 –
Quote from: Chris Cromer – on
Yes, new isos are going to be generated once we have the new runit and openrc stuff ready.

What also was a release blocker, new toolchain, now in stable, but new gcc8 already in goblins.
 

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #38 –
Quote
If you updated before you saw this announcement, there is still hope.

Help your kernel find the new init binary, by providing it manually at the GRUB command line:
init=/usr/bin/openrc-init
thank you for whoever added that on the main page!

I did my usual update and rebooted without thinking and OHNOES!
lesson learned  ;D
>always read the news and new posts in announcements kids
[edit]
and I forgot to ask my question, which is what was the cause/reasoning for this upgrade going a bit crazy? I use openrc, so my guess it had something to do with runit support?

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #39 –
Quote from: toxygen – on
thank you for whoever added that on the main page!

I did my usual update and rebooted without thinking and OHNOES!
lesson learned  ;D
>always read the news and new posts in announcements kids
[edit]
and I forgot to ask my question, which is what was the cause/reasoning for this upgrade going a bit crazy? I use openrc, so my guess it had something to do with runit support?
Yes it does, the change will allow easier switch between openrc and runit, as well as future init systems.
Chris Cromer

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #40 –
Quote from: artoo – on


Remove runlevel symlinks you eventually set manually.



This means the network config files and the mariadb files need to be removed?

Code: [Select]
[ruben@flatbush ~]$ ls -al /etc/init.d/|grep '^.*->'
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty1 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty2 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty3 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty4 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty5 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty6 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    31 Apr 27 21:29 functions.sh -> /usr/lib/openrc/sh/functions.sh
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Dec  1 12:41 net.eno1 -> /etc/init.d/net.lo
[ruben@flatbush ~]$

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #41 –
Quote from: mrbrklyn – on

This means the network config files and the mariadb files need to be removed?

Code: [Select]
[ruben@flatbush ~]$ ls -al /etc/init.d/|grep '^.*->'
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty1 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty2 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty3 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty4 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty5 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Apr 27 21:29 agetty.tty6 -> /etc/init.d/agetty
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    31 Apr 27 21:29 functions.sh -> /usr/lib/openrc/sh/functions.sh
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    18 Dec  1 12:41 net.eno1 -> /etc/init.d/net.lo
[ruben@flatbush ~]$
No, he was referring to the 2 services that are in the original post. Only those 2 services need to be deleted from the runlevel.
Chris Cromer

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #42 –
Quote from: artoo – on
We, as the artix team, never ever stated that we are aiming to be yet another manjaro, we don't, and we said this from the beginning.
If you expect a user friendly distro, that is actually your misconception.

"user freindly" depends on the definition. If you expect a click and point approach, no terminal usage, , then you expect wrong and windows is the OS you really want.
I'm sorry to hear about it now, I'm a developer and I do not have time to deal with OS issues. the procedure indicated did not work for me, I go back to openSuse again. Good luck and thank you
edit:
I'm going to continue for a while here, I appreciate your effort

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #43 –
Quote from: tefenet – on
I'm sorry to hear about it now, I'm a developer and I do not have time to deal with OS issues. the procedure indicated did not work for me, I go back to openSuse again. Good luck and thank you

Depending on the dev language you use, you are much better settled with suse, because they have debug symbols and devel packages, and it is not a rolling release afaik.

Since you are a developer, you will understand that development decision have to be made and implemented.
Artix is less than a year old, started out  in two more or less technically ugly community efforts on arch and manjaro to replace systemd.
It had reached the limits of what is doable technically, hence we started a distro, building all artix repository packages ourselves.
We started off with the rock solid, still developed openrc, the default on gentoo.
However, in recent time, other very promising and nice service managers and init systems have been developed, artix has been evaluating runit, by now well working.
Without going into further detail, we may decide that runit becomes the default on artix, while openrc would still be supported and running stable as usual. We will decide for what we evaluated to be the best software for service management and initializing the system, and this major update laid the foundation to use whatever we evaluated to become default,  without such potential trouble experienced by users. It simply had to be done to implement a neutral init with interface package for service managers.

Re: [openrc][runit] update

Reply #44 –
Quote
we may decide that runit becomes the default on artix, while openrc would still be supported and running stable as usual
would you expand on this a bit? what do you (as artix developers) see as some benefits of runit over openrc? I'm just curious, artix (and previous arch) has been the perfect balance for me between utility (rarely breaks for me) vs hobbyist linux usage (I pretty much went from linux-from-scratch to arch because pacman), so i appreciate the distro as it is.  I always want to know the why's of developers choosing one solution vs another though.