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Overloaded dependencies

Dear,

One of my reasons to use Arch and Artix now is unreasonable dependencies in Debian.
I am not fully happy with Arch about it. There are still dependencies which can be avoided.

I am not sure what was the reason to create Artix, but it doesn't look like a distro for Newbies.
Otherwise it can't hold the competition with Ubuntu and others. There is no point either to make
"Arch with Gnome" alike distro. Every one here is capable to install it if required.

I strongly believe that authors should provide the opportunity but not insist to use something.
It works great considering options to use openrc or runit.

But in few cases some dependencies aren't necessary. Surely I can remove every single package,
but it's not looking nice breaking the wall each time.

Here is an example, but I am sure there are much more of the kind.

pambase  depends on opensysusers and I can't delete the last.
What is opensysusers for?

"A standalone utility for handling systemd-style sysusers.d users and groups"

Hm. And what I should do if I don't need handling systemd-style users?
That is obviouly optional.

The dependency make sense if the program cannot be started without another lib.
If it can be used with limited functionality it should not be dependency but recommended
or suggested packages.

Well, I can't insist anything, but if creators of Artix are thinking to keep users and attract new
it should provide some features, which aren't existing in other >10000 distros.

Even better would be to have everything statically build, without dependencies at all like
guys from suckless project.

P.S. Nevertheless thanks to developers for hardwork! My intention was to make it better.
At least explain what some users think of what would be the best.

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #1 –
Quote from: lefsha – on

Hm. And what I should do if I don't need handling systemd-style users?
That is obviouly optional.




Obviously, it is not optional, you gonna need it.

Feel free to forcefully remove opensysusers, and see how your system runs. I would not recommend it.

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #2 –
the goal of artix is to replace systemd. Do not restrict functions or reduce dependencies.

Some programs are so hard dependent on systemd today that if you do not get a replacement (opensysusers for example) it will not at all works . Therefore must exist other packages to 'openrc' to make the system works at all.

it would be nice if developers did a systemd and non-system version, but unfortunately they do not.

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #3 –
Quote from: lefsha – on
Even better would be to have everything statically build, without dependencies at all like
guys from suckless project.
This is a good idea but it is unreal. The majority of developers are not like developers from suckless, so it will require extremely many patches to build everything statically. This is not current Artix way
ARMtix

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #4 –
Quote from: artoo – on

Obviously, it is not optional, you gonna need it.

Feel free to forcefully remove opensysusers, and see how your system runs. I would not recommend it.

I am not sure you know what you are talking about.  Comparing to Gentoo or what I've been using back in times when Gentoo was on my PC OpenRC was much more polished. May be these days it's not so.

P.S. My suggestion in any case make advises in areas you are very confident with. In that particular question it's not so.

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #5 –
Quote from: alium – on
the goal of artix is to replace systemd. Do not restrict functions or reduce dependencies.

Some programs are so hard dependent on systemd today that if you do not get a replacement (opensysusers for example) it will not at all works . Therefore must exist other packages to 'openrc' to make the system works at all.

it would be nice if developers did a systemd and non-system version, but unfortunately they do not.

I fully understand the purpose of Artix. But those packages or services could be set in dependence from certain packages, not pushing to the system without a reason.

What exact functionality I should be missing without opensysusers? Why I am not missing anything?

Most probably I just don't have a corresponding program installed. That program might need that particular service.
But that is not a general dependence.

P.S. Much more attention should be paid to the content of init.d scripts. I've never changed so much there since Gentoo age.
A lot of them are just missing.

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #6 –
In general my opinion on that - if you provide a 100% of systemd functionality by default including the
systemd ideology to push additional not required functionality  to user then why use a substitution or a copy
of something if I can use the original?

The truth is - most of systemd functionality is not required always. Some functionality is stupid, like insist mounting
of /tmp to tmpfs. I am always switching it off on every system I touch. Systemd is developing  and bumping
new versions way too often for an init system. I do expect an init system to change once a year or less.

Therefore I look for alternatives. S6 is broken. Runit does have even less init scripts than OpenRC. I am not willing
to write them myself every single time. Therefore OpenRC. It's not perfect, but works.

If OpenRC won't be updated on weekly basis I am OK to repair it myself before using it, but if a new version will be
bumped weekly I would have to block the update. Although I would let OpenRC be updated if it won't crash my current config
with all those unnecessary services. That is exactly what makes me worry. Just don't repeat the famous mistake of systemd.
Do not push functionality to user he/she might not need at all. But please push the functionality which is 100% to start the
PC. Because it is the way to repair things once they might be broken at user side. That is my point.

The systemd replacment staff has to be psuhed and started ONLY if there is anything on system which depends on systemd.
If you aren't running a desktop you might need exactly 0% of systemd replacement.
Only if you start X AND use those desktop managers which insist using systemd - yes then you have to turn them on.

A reminder: FreeBSD and Co do not have systemd at all. No replacement either.  Still a desktop with Gnome runs  well there.
Many other DE or WM run too. It's a huge myth, that systemd is required. If you think so you play for the systemd team.

Cheers,

P.S. Anyway thanks to developers for having an alternative Arch without a bloated piece of software. Thank you!!!

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #7 –
We've been in your shoes ourselves and we had to make a hard decision. Given how underhanded we currently are, there's no way to be both current and completelely systemd-free. ATM, the best we can do is allow certain helpers, like opensysusers which manage users and groups for packages, do their work or we'd have to keep writing post-install shell scripts to do the same; re-invent the wheel in other words. But note that opensysusers is not part of systemd family of shame - it just replicates the functionality without demanding PID1 privileges.
For desktops, elogind is indispensable at least until, if ever, consolekit2 reaches feature parity. It's still possible to run a desktop with the old upower-0.9.23 though, but you'll have to compile it yourself.

There's always room for more developers, if you are interested.

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #8 –
Quote from: lefsha – on

P.S. My suggestion in any case make advises in areas you are very confident with. In that particular question it's not so.


Huh? I f***** started openrc on arch.

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #9 –
Quote from: artoo – on
Huh? I f***** started openrc on arch.

Not so strong argument, right? I told you give me an example why I cannot live without it. I personally see none.

For the future if you try to teach or give a not obvious statement, expect, that some one might question you.
It doesn't look well if you can't prove it.

P.S. I was not worrying of myself. I worry of people who don't known and who believe everything they read on internet.
It's not uncommon if some one ask the question the other give the statement "it's impossible" and the third one provides
a proper solution.

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #10 –
Quote from: lefsha – on
Not so strong argument, right? I told you give me an example why I cannot live without it. I personally see none.




You could just try to understand how arch use systemd-sysusers, and why artix uses opensysusers, because arch is our upstream distro for pkgbuild.
But since you know it all, I shall stop explaining to you, right?

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #11 –
Quote from: nous – on
We've been in your shoes ourselves and we had to make a hard decision. Given how underhanded we currently are, there's no way to be both current and completelely systemd-free. ATM, the best we can do is allow certain helpers, like opensysusers which manage users and groups for packages, do their work or we'd have to keep writing post-install shell scripts to do the same; re-invent the wheel in other words. But note that opensysusers is not part of systemd family of shame - it just replicates the functionality without demanding PID1 privileges.
For desktops, elogind is indispensable at least until, if ever, consolekit2 reaches feature parity. It's still possible to run a desktop with the old upower-0.9.23 though, but you'll have to compile it yourself.

There's always room for more developers, if you are interested.

1. I could provide init files I have modified/created by my self, but that need to work perfectly before I do it and be aligned with Artix ideology. If we are that much different how can I provide something, which breaks the concept of Artix?

Still there are few ZFS init scripts remained untouched. I've got them from Gentoo or FreeBSD, do not remember exactly.
Some one who uses or want to use ZFS would need them.

2. Currently I still do have a problem with missing PID file in /run/ according to openrc. I didn't have that issue long ago with Gentoo. In 2016 was mentioned on Gentoo forum, but people blamed new openrc version openrc no pid In fact the service is working and PID file has been created. It happens with unmodified scripts too. For few scripts I have solved that problem. But it's root cause is still unclear to me.

3. There are plenty distros around. Having the one specially for "Gnome" but without systemd, won't make a long running project.
I open you a secret. No every Linux on earth has DE or WM. Most of them need exactly nothing from systemd. Before Arch made move to systemd, it was the case there. It is still the case for Gentoo, I hope at least. Yes the substitution of some systemd components sometimes is required, but not always and not all of them. You want to prove me wrong make a bid.

4. And please, don't get me wrong. I am not saying all those packages are not necessary. I am just saying, that they have to be set into dependence from some packages which really require them. That is why I loved Gentoo. Also my intention is to keep such a project up and running for long time.

Thanks to all.

Re: Overloaded dependencies

Reply #12 –
Quote from: artoo – on

You could just try to understand how arch use systemd-sysusers, and why artix uses opensysusers, because arch is our upstream distro for pkgbuild.
But since you know it all, I shall stop explaining to you, right?

In other words you cannot change dependencies in PKGBUILD and because Arch implies that systemd and its component
always available there is no way to add dependency on systemd or its components. OK. Accepted.
 
I switched off opensysusers from any run level - it works. Both on desktop and headless systems.
According to Oberun some WM dont need elogind as well.

OK I take my suggestion back. Onr need to recreate the full Arch to be able get rid of most systemd components and that is too much work. Thanks